This is the accidentally intentional podcast. I'm your host, Joe. I hate small talk, and I'm ready to have meaningful conversations that build us. Let's go. I am excited that you guys today get to meet my Pau James cuando. You see James and I met a couple months back at the influencer event that I spoke about a couple episodes ago. But just last month, I actually was on the James quando show, which is James's own podcast. And this was my first ever guest appearance on another podcast, which makes it super special. And so in that episode, we talked about friendships. And whenever I asked James to come on my podcast, I said, What do you want to talk about? He said, All relationships. And I said, You got it. So I'm considering this a part two conversation. Don't worry. In the show notes. I'm going to put the link to the podcast conversation I had on his show. And then today, you're going to get to listen to my conversation with him on my show. So before we get into it, I gotta tell you more about my friend James cuando. James is an entrepreneur and author, a performance coach, and of course, the host of the James cuando Show. The show is all about helping you live your life to the fullest, being present and connecting deeply with others and discovering your unique calling. I love the show. By the way, James has led teams for nearly two decades, including to at Forbes 1000 companies, and he's coached hundreds of driven individuals to success. James agencies help natural product brands sell more on Amazon and supports authors in producing and launching best selling books. So this guy is I'm pretty sure a certified genius, and you're about to see why for yourself. So without further ado, let's hop into it. Here's my conversation with my friend, James quando. On how to be a more present friend in a very distracted world. Welcome back to another accidentally intentional podcast episode. And I'm thrilled to introduce you to straight from his laundry room. My friend James cool on doll. Yeah, hi, guys. One second, I have to actually change the load real quick behind me before we go. The noise. I'll make sure it's a little quieter, though. So hysterical. So James has figured out that the audio is best in the laundry room, especially because the clothes can dampen the sound. So I think you're a genius. I also think this means you're about to be the next Jeff Bezos See, ya, you know, you have to start from somewhere. And if you're afraid to get started, because you don't have the perfect location, or you don't have the perfect gear, or you don't have the right education, or the right friends or the right connections, then you're going to wait forever, because you'll never have all those things until you don't need them anymore. Once you have all those things, guess what? You've made it and you don't need any of them. And so start where you are right now with whatever's on your heart. And don't wait. I love that you started with whatever was on your heart right there, James, because that's a perfect intro. So here's what happened is, I was on the James cuando show. And we talked about friendship, et cetera. And when I asked James, to be on my podcast, I said, What would you like to talk about? Because James can talk about a lot of different things. And he said, relationships, and I said, Okay, oh, no, I said that. I'm kind of afraid. Now. I don't know anything about relationships. Well, sorry about you. This is where we're going today. That's great. You know what I've learned? I'll sum up relationships. Right now. Here's the talking point. They're difficult, and they're messy. And they united takes one to know, one. I guess you you know, you're in a relationship when you're in one. And you have to kind of just be willing to roll with the punches. Yeah, no, I think that's a great starting point. But that's also a terrifying starting point for people. Because in our conversation, I found this really interesting because I was kind of speaking just from my heart. And there was one point in our conversation where you had to ask me, kind of how many friends are in your, your core group, right? And I had said something like, a dozen or so. And then you said, Well, what's the frequency in which you're talking to these people, and we kind of broke down the structure and the system that works for me, but then I actually found out that there's science that backs everything I'm saying, and it's called the Dunbar principle. And so I wanted to start by talking about this because I just finished reading a book called Dream Big by Bob Gough and he talked about the Dunbar principle and he talked about the concentric circles of four people, 15 people, and 150 people. And like my mind immediately went to Jesus and the core inner group, the disciples and then the people they ministered to. And after I read that In the book, I go, who am I? Who am I people? And you can choose your people. Sure. But if you didn't choose them, they're still the fifth, you still have 15 people you interact with whether you chose him or you didn't. So I just started writing down by looking at my phone looking at my calendar, looking at my text messages, who are the people I've interacted with the most who have I have gone out with who have I like, Who have I talked to who have I recorded podcasts with, I wrote down the people, then I wrote down people who were on like 100% people that have kind of fallen out of this 15, they're still in the 150. But in the last year or two, who are some friends that I just haven't been, as I'm close with, and I wrote their names down, I was just wondering, like, Is there is there a reason why they're there. And then who are some people I've been talking to a little bit more, and they're not in the 15. But I would really like them to be like, I really like the energy, they're in the same wavelength as me, we're going in similar places, like my place in life right now, like this person would be great. So I made three lists. And, and there was a lot of surprises. And learning from doing that exercise, I feel like it is difficult for the average person to nowadays be able to list off in the BFF, circle, the tightest inner core circle, three to five people who they're in constant communication with right. And then outside of that is the like, friends circle, and that's 12 to 15, which is what James was talking about. And then outside of that is the tribe, which is 150. And that goes back to like our ancestors and how they're usually was 150 people in the tribe. So we are literally wired and unable to break out of this kind of sphere, because that's literally our human capacity. And that really helped me because I'm someone who relational wealth is my thing, right? I want to be friends with everybody all the time, I want to know what everybody's doing. But that's physically impossible. And so that's what I want to kind of ask you about jays, because relationships are a huge deal to you. And I listened to the podcast episodes with your wife, where you talked about connection and presence. And it was heartwarming, that's, that's how I would say it. And it's clear that you want to invest a lot of time into people too. So I would love to know, what you do and what you look for, when it's coming down to divvying your time investment up for other people. I think the word to summarize, my relationship tendencies is being intentional about them and not having them necessarily be accidental. And I swear I'm not making a play on words here. It's just, it's super convenient, actually. But when you make the list of the 15 people that are around you the most, if you don't like that list, and you're you're seeing it on paper. The fact is, those are the people that you're going to be like because they're the people that you're around the most. And if you don't like it, it doesn't mean you have to throw those friendships away. I think that that's a really bad idea. I think God brings people into our lives at the right time for the right reasons. It just might mean, there needs to be some other people added to the mix based on your goals and what you have. I believe that friendship virtually is excellent. And I think having conversations with you is oh remotely is amazing. But I also think we really need physical relationships with people that are next door to us. So we can have serendipitous conversations, someone can help you get into your car, if you lock yourself out, you can go and borrow. I don't know if anyone borrow sugar anymore. But you can trade fruits like my neighbor's bring us lemons and oranges. And then we'll bake something with them. And like we're trading and loving on each other in that way. And we'll just meet up occasionally, just on a walk after dinner. So I'm gonna say Hey, James, and Emily, and we'll just go and sit on their porch for unscheduled two hours of conversation. And it's conversation they needed. And a lot of times we're like, Oh, don't make eye contact. You know, like, that's like, that was my old self, like don't make eye contact, we might not be able to go back and watch our Netflix marathon tonight. But really like that two hours on that porch with our neighbors, spontaneous conversation. I needed that too. And I feel so much better doing that than I ever did watching another show on Amazon Prime. And so I guess my idea is in being intentional about who's in your life, but also allowing there to be some spontaneity and just proximity friendships based on just where you live and where you work. Yeah, I think that's a really difficult thing to do. And that's that's been a challenge for me that I've wanted to lean into more because we're scheduling Everything in our lives, right. And so many of the productivity books nowadays are saying, if you don't schedule your time, someone else will steal it from you, right, which is then creating this almost like, here's my wall of time, we'll see if you can pass. But at the same time, Jesus moved at a pace of three miles an hour, he was always walking, he never ran anywhere. And he was always available to other people. And I feel like that is such a good concept and principle to follow. And I have to tell you this unbelievable story, speaking of neighbors and proximity, so I have a neighbor named Joe. And Joe walks permanently with one crutch, and he has a handicap sign outside of his door, and in his car, and I am actually on crutches right now we're going to figure it out. But I have outside and crutches to get my mail. And Joe sees me and he says, so what happened? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, Joe, we don't really know I'm getting an MRI. All I know is I can't wait bear. And this literally brought me to tears. He said, Well, please let me know if you need anything. And I was like, here's this man who barely knows me at all. This is his life is walking with a crutch, you know, and he just, he sees no issue with it, because he just wants to be there for his neighbor. And I was like, That is somebody who is intentional and loves people, well, even the people who barely knows. And I was so gripped by that. I love that. And you can be intentional about those types of relationships with your neighbors by offering up your skill. So I worked at Best Buy for 10 years, I manage the Geek Squad, I know how to fix computers and phones and TVs and DVD players. And I live in a neighborhood full of retired people. So guess what I'm going to my neighbor's houses and fixing their computers and their TVs and fixing their DVD players and changing HDMI cables. And it's just an act of service for me. But it's also a way for me to to build a relationship with them. And they share like, oh, you know, my son can do this. But he lives in California. And it's so nice that you can do this. And it's just like, a way to kind of just love on a neighbor. And you can't do that virtually you can't just have unscheduled time like that. And you mentioned that the time management experts, and I believe there's a lot of great principles in there. And I'm an addict for any new productivity book. If I can pick up one new trick. I don't do most of them. It just makes me feel like I'm more productive when I'm meeting them. Cheers to that. Yeah. But here's what I here's my philosophy on time management, you are you like within the wall of time that you mentioned, time management is super important. So you can set a block a time to get as much done as you can. So then you have a block of time that spontaneous so you can take a walk and run into a neighbor and walk up onto their porch. If you are time rich. If you manage your time, well, you should have time for a random sit down and a glass of wine in the evening. Like you should be able to take an afternoon walk for two hours if your job allows to add right. But if you manage your time, well, you'll be able to do that. So I think it's a balance between both. I think that's a great answer that makes a ton of sense. I want to go back to where you had talked about the 15 people in your life, right? And you're just like, who's actually in my 15? Do I want them they're doing not? I want a two fold question with this. So first, I want to know who you decide should be in your 15. And also asking you as a believer, a fellow believer, what is the ratio that you think is healthy for people that pour into you, mutual and people that you pour into? What does that look like for you. So as far as who's in the 15th, at the end of the day, the people that are in the 15 are there right now, because of the choices that you've made, like, you can't change it, you may not like it, or you may love it, but those are the those are your 15 if you no longer want that 15 You're gonna have to probably get uncomfortable, and maybe take some lunch dates with some new people. Or look at some of the other people who are on the outskirts that maybe give you a lot of energy and make you feel good. And bring them in now pouring in to others. So I'm an encourage her. If anyone ever needs like a high five or a word of encouragement, or some love or like hey, you're on the right path, just hang in there. I'm your guy like that's what I do. So I've really fought with this because I sometimes go well, who's pouring into me? Like if I'm the one pouring into everyone that I'm interacting with, like, who is refilling me? Yeah. And I've really been struggling with that for like a year. And I've asked so many guests on my podcast about that, like, what do I do if I feel like the relationship feels sort of one sided. And I think it might have been you that told me that, if you don't call someone and they don't call you back, it doesn't mean they're any less of a friend, like they have their own life going on. If you want that person in your life, keep calling them if they don't call you back, like, this isn't some type of an exchange where I call them twice. They call me twice, like, if you love that person, keep calling them. And if you don't want them in your life anymore, well don't call them anymore. But I think that I find, what are other ways that I can be encouraged and refilled. Other than those relationships, because maybe those relationships aren't the ones that are supposed to fill me up, directly like that. Maybe I need to take more walks, and be alone and stare at a pond, or sit in silence and pray, or read my Bible or read an uplifting book, or there's many, many ways to be filled up other than relationships. And so I'm still struggling with it truthfully, because I do feel like relationships as a commodity sometimes, and I don't like that. I didn't even like feeling like there was people I wanted to remove. I just don't it feels dirty to me. Because it almost feels like why am I doing that just to like, get ahead in life? Like what? What's the point in that? And so I'm still really trying to figure that out? No, I really appreciate that. Honesty? Because I think that's the reality. Right? Is that then it's almost like, I mean, we hear balance, balance, we're hearing this word, this buzzword everywhere. But are we ever actually getting there? And if we don't, is that still going to be okay with us? You know, because that's honestly, where we're walking is life will be imbalanced, but it's how you can feel centered. In spite of that, and in the midst of that, and I love that you pointed to kind of doing stuff to pour into yourself, if you couldn't get it externally, you are going to get internally or of course vertically with God. So no, I love that answer. Um, how would you say? Or in what ways do you feel most connected with other people? For me, the perfect connection experience. And this goes to Gary Chapman's love languages, I'm sure in some way. For me, number one is quality time by a landslide. So for me connection is complete presence with no phones, no TV, no outside distractions, and just sitting and sharing a great conversation with someone or a great meal, or a good glass of wine or taking a long walk down the beach with some friends. That to me is the best exchange of relationship. And I really get frustrated when I'm trying to have that with someone and they're like pulling out their phone all the time. Like those are probably people I'm not going to spend as much time with, I'm going to encourage them to leave their phone behind or put it on airplane mode or like hey, like I really would like some quality time with you. Could you like turn your phone upside down and like, spend some time with me like, I would set some type of a boundary? Because we're also addicted to our phones. Yeah, no, I think that's a unfortunately, I can't give another perspective because I agree 1,000%. And that's the same for me. And I will say My boyfriend is the master at this. Anytime we go out, he leaves his phone in the car. He's like it's not even coming in, I want to be fully present. And I respect that so much. And it's so challenging for me to write because obviously, as a result of him doing that I'm not touching my phone at all, either. And it has made me more present in every one of my relationships, because now I've learned that habit that I'm like, I don't want to touch my phone while I'm with somebody else. So I love that you said that and validated that. And you can take your phone into the restaurant, have it in your purse or your pocket and on airplane mode. And then that way, if something goes down you you have a safety net because I think a lot of people's excuse for being on their phone all the time. He's like, Well, what if something happens, I need to be able to call for help. Well, number one, every other person around you has their phone, don't worry, like it's not the times of 1940 where you have to go to a payphone. Like you're gonna be able to call for help. There's gonna be someone around you that has a phone, but if you really want to feel safe and comfortable, leave it on airplane mode, or at least at least put it on Do Not Disturb and have one or two people as your VIPs who can get through in an emergency and And that's it and, and I have to challenge someone who feels. And I own a small business. And I've ran a corporation. I challenge a business owner or a leader who thinks that they're successful, and that they need to be on call all the time, with with exception of some doctors and nurses and firefighters and some of those things. That's my caveat, I challenged your leadership ability, if your building or your office or your company can't survive two hours with you being unavailable. If it can't, I'm sorry, you are not a good leader, and you should fix the workplace issues and your leadership issues. And then you need to work on your personal relationships too, because you're probably not doing a great job in those either. If you can't be president. James, I actually appreciate you going there. Because I have to tell you, this is hilarious. I just just 24 hours ago, did a 24 hour tech break, ha, where I, I got to the point where I was like, I cannot temper this distraction unless I turn the phone off and make a decision. I'm putting in this drawer and I'm not touching it for 24 hours, and I didn't open my laptop either. Good for you. I realized, so many things were going on in my head this whole time. And I felt a level of peace that I legitimately have not felt for years. And my whole rationale the whole time all these years for not doing this is because what if somebody needs me, but then I realized, as I actually turned it off, for the first time, I'm actually trusting God, instead of myself to be there for other people. And that was really convicting. And now I want to do this once a week because of the peace I felt. And knowing that if I couldn't be there, somebody else will be one. It's a great thought exercise. If you're addicted to your phone and attached to your phone, and most people say they're not but I'm telling you, if you're listening to this, odds are you are because I watch other people because I'm not on my phone, and everyone's checking their phone all the time. Put your put to screentime app on your iPhone and and see how many times you pick it up? And how many, how many hours are on it, and do the same on your computer. And you'll go wow, I'm on this eight or nine hours a day or more. And then guess what? It meant? You have a problem. But the thought exercise is what could go wrong? Who could be who would call me? What would the emergency be? And what would I be able to do? And in most scenarios, when I walked through that exercise, I realized, well, I'm not gonna be able to save their life. My family is all in Michigan. And so I can't even get there for a day anyway. Yeah, who is going to be calling me in an emergency that I couldn't get back to in a few hours. I couldn't think of anybody. And so I invented, this is so great. You brought this up. I invented a day called Screen last Sunday. And ever every Sunday, my wife and I don't check our emails, we don't go on social media. We don't go on our computers. We don't order things online. We don't watch TV, we have an entire day that screenless. And it's unbelievable how bored you can get. And then through that boredom, you're pulling out board games and looking at photo albums, taking long walks, getting out a journal and writing down ideas for your next book. Like, you get bored and then you actually do something valuable. And it's hard the first few weeks, the first few hours. I think what you said about tucking it away in a drawer that really helps because if it's within visual distance of you, it's like a tic you're someone says who is that person and that was in that movie made in Manhattan. And you're like, Ah, I can't remember who was that? Who was I gotta check my phone. It's like I did that. That was and then you're like, Oh, I can't. But then you're like, Okay, first of all to grant and who cares? Who cares? Like it doesn't matter. Look it up later if you still care. But guess what, in 10 minutes, you don't even care anymore. It's just a compulsive tick. And there's science between the dopamine detox on this so you're detoxing from this dopamine addiction. And what that allows you to do the rest of the week Monday through Saturday and choose screenless Sunday any day it can be screenless Wednesday I don't care choose a day that works for your schedule. Or choose a five hour block like choose an hour block like start anywhere you want. But the idea is the rest of the week you are getting paid dividends from that sacrifice in focus and presence and awareness and creativity and all these things get added to your life and it's absolutely unbelievable. If you can stick with it, it will change your life. I love it and also to you James and to you who are listening right now if you have not read it The ruthless elimination of hurry by John Mark comer, you need to because it'll convict you in all the right ways as to what it's like to live a life filled with peace and less anxiety and less technology dominating us. So no brilliant, I was thinking of getting a flip phone for real like going back to a flip phone, because then I'd be even less connected. My only if I'm worried about how to post on Instagram. I mean, that's the only thing holding me back. If I can figure that out. I'm good to go. That's been my thing is I'm trying to figure out ways that I can be on Instagram one day a week. But by figuring out I mean, trying to figure out how to overcome the temptation to look at my phone every 15 seconds, which is a slight exaggeration, but not by much you're on. You're on the right track with it. And thank you, if you just started, imagine. And here's what's amazing, is it bleeds over to Monday, like Monday morning or like, I don't even check my phone. Like I used to be on Instagram before I even like, got out of bed basically. Right? And yeah, you're like, there's nothing really there that important, you start to actually value something different in life. Yeah. And that's the thing is I hit up productivity spree. I didn't know I hadn't been me, James in 24 hours time, I read 430 pages of books, including the entire skip the line book by your friend, James Archer. Great book, it's hard to skip the line. If you are constantly ping pong in between distracting things that aren't creating any value. Yeah. And there's the I love that we're going on this standard right now. But there's also science that shows that anything that pulls you away from something you're deeply focused on, it takes your brain 25 minutes in order to get back in the rhythm. So one text sends you and I mean, that's crazy. To me, if you need more scientific proof on this Cal Newports book, deep work will kind of outline it. And what's interesting is how replaceable Are you as an employee, if you literally can't even like stay focused on a task for an hour? Like what can you really create of quality? If you're bouncing around all the time, and you can't, you really can't, you need to you need to have blocks of time. That's undistracted to create. Yeah. And it's so clear that especially after listening to those episodes with you and your wife that you make that undivided attention and undistracted time such a priority, and you said something, and I loved it. And I want to hit on this. People ask you all the ticket, how long have you been married for James? So it'll be two years in two months. Okay. Congratulations, thank you say that people often come up to you and say, Oh, well, honeymoon phase must be nice, or something like that, right? And tell everyone what you respond to that I still do this today. And I have done this in the last week. And I say, our honeymoon isn't gonna end like why does the honeymoon have to end like sure we took a one week honeymoon vacation after we got married. But the honeymoon is gonna go forever. And then people will say, Yeah, but the seven year edge. It gets really tough at seven years, like I'm telling you, and I go, No, like it doesn't have that doesn't have to be that way. Right? If you're intentional, if you work on it. If you invest as just as much energy in your relationship with your partner, as you do in binging Netflix shows, The Seven Year Itch is going to be nothing like it. So yeah, that's like one of my big things. I'm glad you brought it up. But the honeymoon phase doesn't have to end. It should never end we should always be trying to date and woo and wow, our spouse. And when we stop trying to do that, then you can finish the sentence for yourself. First of all, why don't you tell? Okay, if you're one of those people, how about speaking life into others and uplifting them and encourage them them instead of being like, Oh, well troubles on the way Buckle up for it? I mean, come on now people let's do better. I agree. Why on earth would you tell a newlywed couple I still say we're newlyweds. And that's another thing like why why not? And why would you? What good is that? Like? Well be watching out behind? Yeah, like what? Like, I came into this relationship with no exit plan. No go bag, no end date. And that's the way it's gonna be. And I did Emily and I did have a conversation a few weeks ago. And I, I asked her I, we were laying in bed, and I was like, why didn't you settle? Like you had other relationships, long term relationships before we met? why did why didn't you settle? And we kind of just kind of talked about it. And then I also was like, How do you like teach? And I imagine we'll have a daughter someday. And I said, I'll How will we make sure we show our daughter? How to find someone who also won't bring a go bag or an exit planner? Or ever want to quit? Like, how do you? How do you identify that when you're dating someone to make sure that they're going to be committed? Because if, if either of you aren't committed 100% It can't work like it won't like you need to find someone who won't quit no matter what both of you because I could be 100% Sure, I'm never gonna quit, no matter what. But if Emily's 50% I can't stop her from quitting, I can do my best to love and pour into her and, and do what I can. But if she's got that I can't. So I don't know how to teach that. I haven't figured out the answer. But I haven't asked him I'm trying to find out. Well, I think not to be suddenly think I know all the answers here. But I think that in life is in James officers book, he said, I can say whatever I want to I'm blue in the face, but until they actually watch me acting it out, it means nothing. And I think that everything in life is learned behavior, whether you're teaching it to yourself, or you've acquired it elsewhere. So I think that I mean, you as my friend James, you've taught me so much about, about friendship, and, and seeing potential and others, which is where I want to go with this next, that I think your little girl just to speak life into you while you have the opportunity, she's not going to be just fine. She's going to thrive in that department. And there is a saying, I heard just the other day that more is caught than taught. And so what you said like about my future little girl or boy, us just being an example is going to teach them more than anything I can ever say. Yeah, yeah, I think I think you're you're right on with that. Well, it's all true from how I'm seeing it, I want to talk about how you are someone that spots potential, and sees potential and brings potential out of other people. Because the first conversation you and I ever had, you were saying things to me, you were seeing things in me that people who have only known me for a year or more know to be true about me, and you saw it right out of the gate. And I felt extremely encouraged by you. And I think at the end of the day, everybody wants a friend like that, in their corner. How did you become that? And how would you encourage other people into becoming that person? Also? I, I wish I knew the answer to that. All I can. I don't know how I became this. But I thank you, that's the best compliment that I can get. Because it's what brings me the most joy is finding potential in people that they may not even see. And to me, though, it's clear as day I see it a mic, I can see it across an entire room. But for some reason, that person who's living in that body living in that skin for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, they don't see it. And even crazier, their friends and family sometimes don't see it, or even say they don't have it. Sometimes a friend and family says you want to start a business or you want to start a podcast or you want to write a book like who do you think you are like sometimes they're actually pulling them back. But somehow I see that potential, and I see it in everybody. It's it's not just a select few. I think that all of us have hidden potential. If we're just loved on and and encouraged. And we believe in ourselves that is there. And we just have to get out of our own way and tap into it. What's one step that you would give someone to get out of their own way because this could become applicable to looking for new friends to is they're just like, well, what if they don't like me? What if I'm going to Lulu, what would you say? Start thinking about what you like to do when you were a kid. Before there was societal expectations on you before you had a job when you just did things for the fun of it. And for me that was climbing trees playing street hockey, playing video games, taking walks, going camping spending time outside, I had this radio DJ podcast I did computer programming, like all these things I love to do. Once I got a job at age 14 That was it. I was sucked into the regular world. I had to like, you know, I had to get a nice condo and a cool car and I had to take vacations I had to post all that on Instagram. And it was no longer about me anymore, it was like about this fictitious version of me that I had to maintain. But if you sit down with a piece of paper, and are present with your phone on Do Not Disturb, as we talked about before, think about what you were like when you were eight, 910 11 years old before the world took over, and write down what you love to do. And it might have been dancing or singing, or, or drawing, or, or, or whatever, and write that stuff down. And then ask yourself, when is the last time I did these things, if it's been a really long time, I encourage you to reintroduce some of those things back into your life. And watch how much joy and passion and purpose can come in to your life and fill you up, and then go from there. Because it's hard to go and believe in yourself, if you don't really have like a lot of energy radiating within you and joy. And so you got to create that first. And then who knows, maybe you make a business out of the summit stuff, or maybe the stuff just propels you into what you want to do. But we were given clues of what brings us joy when we were kids, because it was what we'd naturally gravitated to. We just forgot how to do it. Because the world told us that stuff wasn't cool anymore. And we had to like go get a real job and, and stop playing with toys and, and and do this other stuff. I think that's a that's a great first start for people because it's almost like going back to our first loves, right is what's gonna spark that in us as well. And I think that's, I think that's great, because how you're framing it is almost like, if nobody else is telling it to you, you're gonna be able to find it for yourself again, and you're gonna be able to be like, oh, man, I do have potential because I did this before, et cetera. So I love that. I love it so much, because you can't. There's like this culture of life coaches right now. Yeah, yeah. And you can't pay someone else to tell you. What's inside of you. Like, yeah, like you could, you could email me and we could get on a zoom call. And I can encourage you and I could ask you questions, and I can pull some of this out. But you've been with yourself a lot longer than I have been. And if you just do the work of in silence, it will come to you. And it can also come from prayer, and and time alone, and in silence without a notebook. And, but it really comes truly, I'm so glad you brought up the screenless Sunday, because it really comes from being distraction free. And I think the reason so many people are lost and feeling like they aren't doing enough and they are not connecting with their true self is because they haven't spent enough time alone with themselves to really even get to know themselves. And you can't be alone with yourself if you're on your phone alone with yourself is sitting on a park bench. Watching the EEG gret. This is what I did last week, for like way more than time than I'm willing to admit. I sat on a park bench in silence, no phone, no notebook, no air pods, and I watched an EEG gret walk around the entire pond and get back to where he started. It was like 45 minutes. And I felt so full of God and full of life and fall of peace. And I kind of chided myself that I had forgotten. Because I used to do that almost every day. And I hadn't done it in a while. And you need that silence to really discover who you are. That's so good. I know that for for girls. Girls love to talk, we'll talk all the time, we'll talk about anything, anywhere you want to talk. And I have seen and I don't know if this is an all guys thing, but I would love your perspective on what do guys do together to connect that makes them feel filled up as far as men and my friends go, I think I have a little bit intentionally have a different friend group than I used to. Because I used to just basically have friends based on the activities in my life. Like if I was playing tennis, my friends played tennis, if I and when I played video games, my friends played video games. Like if I played chess, my friends played chess and like, that was our relationship. We didn't talk about things going on at home very often. It was just like, we played that game. We did those things. And then like we we went our separate ways. I feel like a lot of male friendships are that way. And that's all they are. And I started challenging myself to try to build emotional relationships with my guy friends and by ask like, by sharing things in my life, personal things, embarrassing things, potentially with the right people and then allowing them the same space if they did, they were willing and wanting to Yeah, so you had that vulnerability even though you knew it could be absolutely a risk. Yeah, could burn and And I think that that could happen in any relationship guy, guy, guy, girl, and whatever. It's, if you want intimacy, and you want closeness and you want vulnerability, you have to go first. It's not going to come unless you go first. And so that kind of sucks. Because it can hurt when you share something with someone. And they're like, Oh, that sucks, like, hope you feel better have a good day. And like, Okay, well, that person's got their own things going on in their life, that they're not hating on you, like, don't hold it against them. But that's not the time to share with that person. Like, maybe there's someone else in your life, that you can share that with who who can who can help you through that? Yeah. And it's one of those things where sometimes people don't know how to hold it, and you can't fault them for that, because they don't know how, right. And so it's like, what's the worst that can happen? Yeah, they can literally crush you that could, but also, what's the best that can happen? You can gain a friendship that you've been looking for your entire life, you know? So it's like, what's the opportunity cost of it all. And that person who you shared that vulnerability with, might have been surprised, like, maybe no one's ever said something like that to them, and they didn't know how to respond. And maybe two weeks, three weeks, four weeks later, they're gonna call you and say, Hey, Zo, like, my cat just died. And I'm, it's really hard for me. And I just need someone to talk with or spend time with, could you come over. And that was as a result most likely of you being vulnerable and going first. And that's them saying, Hey, I'm ready to be vulnerable with you. And I appreciate that you are willing to do it with me. And so it may not, it may not be right away, but you got to pick up on that. And you can't get your feelings hurt, like, you got it. You can and I would so, but try to remove yourself from the scenario later and understand that most people are good people. And most people aren't trying to hurt your feelings. They may just not know how to respond. Or they may not really think it's that serious. Or they may just be caught up with their own traumas that are even worse, and they may think your cat died. Well, my mom died, like, your cat right now is not a big deal to me. And so yeah, yeah. So I hear this question often, because this is my new thing is I, I like having conversations with people about whenever they're saying whenever they're mentioning, any relational issues they're having, I'll say, Well, what is your goal? What is your goal of that friendship, specifically? Like, what do you want that to be? And I think a lot of people, it's not even necessarily default. But I've heard this answer the most. And it was, I know that if I ever needed them, they're there for me. What would you say to that? And also, how would you say the value is that you're looking for in friendship? It could be different, right? For some friendships, like, I know, there's very specific things that I look for in the different friendships that I have, which is why everyone in my core serves a separate purpose that's mutually beneficial for both of us. I think your benchmark for evaluation is critical for the inner circle of like four people or five people. Yeah, I don't think it's as critical for the 15th. Like, I just had a lot lower expectations for the 15th as far as response time and be there in the middle of the night, and a lot of the 15 might be virtual people that I don't see in person very often. Yeah. And what was the second part? It was basically like, what would you say is your goal in a friendship? It's definitely different with each person. And I try really, really hard to not have any friendships that have ulterior motives, to a fault to a fault. Like, I've made friends with people who are famous, like people that you would know. And the listener would know. And I don't ask them for anything, never will. Because I don't want there to be any thought that the reason I'm their friend is because I want to gain something. So for me, it's like to a fault. It's just this person gives me energy, I give them energy, and that's why we're friends. And and that's enough. I don't I try not to have tactical relationships that are going to help me ahead. Yeah. Now, what I found is because I'm genuine and about that, you'll find that people do want to help you. If you don't have these ulterior motives, these people do, see what you're doing and want to bring you along the ride with them. But just like it like be very open with your friendships don't like if you want let's just say I'm going to make just give an example. Let's say you want to start a business and You don't know how you don't have a business. Now, there's nothing wrong with going to business networking events, and making friends who are successful business people. And, and having a genuine relationship with them. Knowing that you probably going to learn some business things from them too, because they're business experts, that's okay. But just going and picking the most successful person in the room, and then like time, whatever they want to hear, hoping that they're going to open the door for you. That's a losing strategy, they're going to spot it a mile away. If they don't, it's going to be a really weak friendship, it's not going to be genuine, and you're not going to get anything out of it. I liked what you said, because I think that's a very unique framing, right? Is whenever people say, Well, I look for people who I know that when I need them, they're there. For me. I don't think friendship should be needs basis, I think it should be doing life together, life giving basis. And so how you said, you said something about an energy you're like, they give me energy, I give them energy, I think that's a perfect way to say it is that because there is an energy and a synergy, right. And people can give you energy, but it can be a bad energy. So it's important to look for people who give you life, giving energy, who pulled out the best in you and who pull you forward, instead of pull you backward. And I think that is the markings of a healthy friendship. So I think that helped articulated brilliantly. And when we met, there was maybe 70 other people, maybe 100 other people in the room. Yeah. And I came to that event with clear goals. I did. And my clear goals was to find two or three people I could build a deep relationship with, I didn't want to meet all 100 people, I didn't meet all 100 people. And that was okay. And I My objective was to connect with a couple people and form a deep relationship. And to do that, you have to trust in something other than like some tactical advantage. I didn't read through the playbooks and go, here's the four people I want to meet. Yeah, that would be doing the opposite of what I said my goals were. Instead, I let god bring the people into my life that I should have in my life, and then felt how it felt like if it felt good, those are the people I spend time with. And that's why we spent the couple days hanging out. Amazing, and I'm so glad because like that, that was the thing. I love that you said you brought God into it, I can't do that event. And I was like, God, I'm literally ready for everything. Like I have high expectations of just like, I know, you're gonna show up, you're gonna put me in front of the right people. And I'm gonna be able to have amazing life given conversations. And that's exactly what happened. And more like, talk about Ephesians 320, exceedingly, abundantly more, that's what that event was. But I think asking God to come into this is is super weird to some people, they don't even think about it. But I remember in college, which is where I started, where all my friendships and my relationships transformed. I remember asking God, the super weird thing, it was basically almost like a surrender. And I said, God, you know that I need friends. And honestly, I'm at the point now, where I promise, whoever you bring, I'm not going to judge I'm not going to try and count out. I'm going to accept whoever you bring into my life. And I just need you to make it clear that those are, those are the people and I had the from the lens of just like looking at it like people I would be friends with. It was the wonky, just best friendships that I had. People were like, How the heck are you? Like, YouTube friends, like you love hip hop fashion. She loves like, construction. Hey, let you know. And it was just like the weirdest things, but it doesn't matter. Because our foundations were the same. I wanted people who. And that's really what it comes down to is like the foundations need to be aligned. Everything else can be a little bit different. Like James, you and I probably don't like the same things very much at all. But we still love people and we still love God. And that's the foundation. And that's how we're able to have a great friendship. So, yeah, yeah, I actually have found that my friend group has a lot less in common with me than they actually have in common with me. Yeah. And they have different religious beliefs. They have different political beliefs. They have different diets, they have different exercise habits. They have different basically everything than me. But what we have in common is a shared love and trust in each other and a vulnerability and we there's a chemistry of energy that's positive that when we spend time together, most of the time when we leave, we both feel better. And I think that is what's important in a friendship. Absolutely. And that's a good metric. Right is after gauge. How? How do I feel? How does my spirit feel? Do I feel like that energy has been brought up in me? And do they feel the same way? And I think I think that's a fair conversation to have is, I had a leadership coach once asked me, or challenged me, figure out how your friends receive you. And I was like, I don't know that. I want to know that. And he's like, No, you absolutely do. Because they're going to show you where your gifts are. Whenever you're feeling like you don't have any. And so I started asking my friends, like, how do you receive me? Like, what do you feel? Whenever you know, we're together and it was really eye opening and honestly gave me the confidence moving forward. And other friendships is like people said, No, I feel uplifted. I feel encouraged because like, you are giving me time you are giving me love you are giving me like everything I need, you are holding space for the moment. And I didn't even I didn't even realize I was doing it. I was just trying to be the friend I always wanted. And as a result, it worked. I went through the exact same development. When I said I was an encourager. I don't even know what that was a year ago. It's just who I was. Yeah, it took a friend who told me that that was my gift. And then I analyzed my life and go, Wow, that really is my gift. And guess what, after I realized that I didn't need I was going through this thing, like, well, I'm filling all these people up, who's filling me up. Once I realized my gift was to fill others up. I didn't care if it was coming back anymore. Like that was my sacrifice for the friendship, that was what I could do. And it was less important that it came back, it was less important for it to be reciprocal, and even and one on one and exchange. And it was more just, hey, encourage them. And, and I'll get filled up a different way. And And don't get me wrong, like, like you and many other my friends do fill me up. But just being transparent about my gift and not looking for reciprocation just changed everything. I agree. And I think that's what makes the greatest friends, the greatest leaders is the people who do everything from the lens of how can I serve others, even if it's at no benefit myself? Yeah. And as you may have noticed, having a podcast, you may get random emails occasionally of people that are like, Hey, you're looking for guests on your show? I don't know. Yeah, I get Oh, I do. Yeah. And they're the worst. They're the worst. Because I'm like, first of all, I don't know the person. Why are you trying to pitch me a stranger? Like, and it was not like, hey, oh, I love your show. I loved listened to every single episode. I would love to just like meet yo, it's like, well, you put Mr. Bob onto your show. He's an expert in this, this. And this. If you're going into a networking event, which specific targets and specific people you want to meet. You're that Mr. Bob, you're not the XO that's reaching out genuinely and just trying to love others. And yes, the Enzo is going to get further ahead. I promise you if it's like a race of achievement and competition, and I'm a I'm a big time competitor and achiever. I like success. I could talk another hour about goals and success and succeeding and dreaming. Yeah, but you're gonna get way farther tat. Like, if you just want a tactic to get ahead, be genuine in your relationships, and you'll get ahead, you cannot fake it, you have to be real. And if you can't go back to the beginning, you have to spend time alone to get there. You have to you have to love yourself first. I completely agree. I think that's a brilliant way to end it. James, I love ya. You're one of my pals, and my life is better with you in it. So thank you so much for being on the accidentally intentional podcast. It was such an honor. So thank you, it's time to hit those takeaways. So here we go. Number one, I love how at the top of the episode, James talked about how he was assessing the 15 people that he spends the most time with and taking inventory of are these people pulling me forward? I'm staying the same or are they pulling me back? Are they inhibiting potential growth in my life? And I think that's a fair challenge for all of us. Let's take inventory of the 15 people we spend the most time with and really discern whether these people are pulling us forward into our purpose and our potential because those are the people we want to surround ourselves with. Number two, I love how James allows for spontaneity or serendipity, as he says and how he is super structured with his schedule, but how he also puts time in his calendar to be unplanned is the planned unplanned time. I love that and how he really challenges all of have us to make a focus on connecting with people that are in a tangible close proximity to us and not just virtually with everybody, which I think is going to continue to be harder to do. As we transition into a more virtual world, we have to keep proximity relationships, Paramount. Number three, this was a theme that kind of continued throughout the conversation of just being where your feet are, and making sure that the person in front of you has your undivided attention, and to kill any distractions that are getting in the way of you doing that. Number four, I love when James was talking about his response to people saying that his relationship with his wife and his marriage is in the honeymoon phase and how he refuses to let go of the honeymoon phase. And I love that he said, I didn't come in with an exit plan, nor do I intend to get one, it was so encouraging. And let's be honest, that's the best relationship advice you can give is just being fully committed. Number five, when James was discussing how he's vulnerable with his group of girlfriends, I thought that was very important that he mentioned giving people grace for how they'll receive what you're about to tell them because sometimes, it might be the first time that somebody has heard what you're about to say. And they don't necessarily know what to do with it in that moment. But that doesn't mean they won't come back around. Vulnerability is a risk. But it's a risk, I believe is always worth taking. And also, it's important to note that James makes an effort to model that to his friends, by first being that friend who people can be vulnerable with. And he holds what people share with him very safely. And make sure that the trust they've given them, he keeps sacred. And I think that's a great challenge for all of us to do the same on our friendships. That is how you foster deep connection. And number six, I love how he said this. He said, great friendships, just give off this positive energy that just uplifts you. And if both of you feel that when you walk away from a conversation, you're on the right track. That's what helps build both of you. So guys, you know that I love talking about relational wealth. That's what this podcast is all about helping us build more of it every single day. So I hope this conversation was super helpful for you. I cannot wait to jump back on here with you. We have a fun episode coming up in the next two weeks. So stay tuned, stay subscribed. Let's hit it. Love you guys post. Was there someone that came to mind as you were listening to this episode? Because if so, please share it with them. We're so passionate about this message. And we want to give value to the people that would benefit from it. We drop a new episode every other Thursday, so be sure to subscribe to get the latest conversations. Oh, and one more thing. If you enjoy this episode and this podcast, I would be so honored. If you would leave a review. It helps us to better connect with the intended audience of this podcast by doing so. And I truly am so grateful for any amount of time that you choose to spend with me because trust me I know how many options are out there and I do not take it for granted. Seriously, I just wow I just really appreciate you and take I may not know your name yet, but let's change that connect with me on Instagram at XO Asher, or on Twitter at combos with xo. But hey, even if I don't know your name yet, what I do know for certain is that you're amazing. I love you. You have something that the world needs and you are always more than enough. So hey, we'll see you next time on The accidentally intentional podcast.