This is the accidentally intentional podcast. I'm your host, Joe. I hate small talk, and I'm ready to have meaningful conversations that build us. Let's go. Welcome back, my friends to another accidentally intentional podcast episode. And if you clicked on the title, you know that this is going to be a very interesting conversation and not giving any spoilers. The conversation surprised me in a lot of ways. And this has been a topic that I have been hearing a lot more about lately coming from Millennials questioning this whole concept of the transition of hey, I love my parents, but now I'm an adult myself, how can I become friends and create a healthy friendship relationship with my parents? So I decided you know who needs to come on the podcast? Dr. Andrea Mata or Su is affectionately nicknamed Dr. Dre. I had the great honor and pleasure of not only getting to meet her but really sitting down and getting to know her at an influencer event a couple months ago. But here's what you should know about her. Dr. Dre is a clinical child psychologist who specializes in treating antisocial and aggressive behavior. She founded brightspot families with the mission of fortifying the family by teaching coping relationship and parenting skills. So this woman is by all means in experts in this topic, and like I said at the beginning, this conversation took some surprising turns. And I think that whether you are a parent yourself, or an adult child, you will gain so much from this episode. And quite honestly, I can't wait to hear about it at the end. So hey, without further ado, let's jump into my conversation with Dr. Andrea Mata on how adult children can become friends with their parents. All right, everyone, welcome back to another accidentally intentional podcast episode, this is going to be an exciting one. Because not only am I live from my Airbnb in Charlotte, North Carolina, but more importantly, because we have Dr. Andrea Mata on the podcast. And I gave a little bit of an intro about her by this point. And we met a couple of months ago. She's amazing. She has so much wisdom as a child psychologist, and this episode is going to be juicy. So I am so ready for it. So Dr. Andrea? First off, you know the topic we're talking about today. And basically we are covering how to become friends with your adult parents. And from what I've been hearing, this is something that is more prevalent than I originally expected it to be. So I guess I would love to first hear you talk about one, why is it so prevalent? And two? Why is this kind of transition important? So I think the first answer your first question, so I think that's why it's so prevalent. I don't think it's always been the case. I think it is a recent phenomenon that we are seeing that and it's predominantly in mothers trying to be best friends or friends with their adult children. Because I think it's more prevalent in women or moms because women tend to be relational. We want to have those social relationships. I was just in church the other day I was serving in the infant room. And one of the moms that was serving with me she because they had just had the father daughter dance, and she was there doing registration. And she like she like popped in and her daughter's like, be here. This is for dad and me, like get out of here. And then she started thinking she's like, why don't we have like a mom, and you know, Sundance. And then she was like, wait, no, that would look totally different. Because all the moms would be talking with each other, and like ignoring their sons, whereas like dads are like, zoned in on their daughters and ignoring all the other dads. And because women want relationships with other people. And so I think that was one thing. And then why is it more prevalent now is because we're starting to see a different developmental period. It's called emerging adulthood. So the time between 18 and 25 years of age is when we are supposed to be figuring out who we are. So what is our identity? What do we believe? We're supposed to be getting our independence we're also supposed to be making like really stupid choices and learning from those choices, figuring out who we love, but in recent years and like the the decade or the double decades of the helicopter parents, parents don't want their children to make mistakes. So they're really struggling struggling with this at In a 25 year period with their kids this transition, because they don't want to see their kids struggle. And so they're like, Oh, let me do this for you. Let me do this for you. Oh, and let's be friends, because we're supposed to be, we're also told that like, women are told, like, we're supposed to be like everything. And if you're trying to be everything, well, there's not a lot of times for your own friendships. And so now you already have relationships with your, with your kids. So why not just kind of make those more of a friendship? If that all makes sense? Ya know, that makes a lot of sense. You know, I always think about learning behaviors. And it's so interesting, because you're talking about how this generation of parents doesn't want to see their kids struggle and, and get hurt. And but it wasn't the same prior to that. So what do you think is causing that shift for parents now to come to that realization, that was they were never treated the same when they were kids? I think it's the whole phenomenon where we want to treat our children better than we were treated. And so like, we didn't want them to short like we struggled. Like I remember, my parents totally made me struggle. But now like, we're trying to prevent every bad thing from happening. And that's not working for us as a society. And we're trying to be our we're trying to be everything, which includes being our kids, friends, which again, does it. In my opinion, it doesn't really work. If if this transition period, right of your kids becoming independent, and turning into adults, what do you think is the main problem that's causing this kind of friction, because obviously, parents want to stay in their kids lives no matter how old they are. So I think what's causing the friction is there's there's changes in roles. So in every relationship, we have to look at, like, what is each person's role, and for the first 18 years of a child's life, the parent served a parental role. And they, they understood that they it took 18 years for them to fit, maybe it maybe took longer or shorter, I don't know, to figure out like how to play that role best for their child, and each of their children, because you can't parent all your kids the same way. And so, what when the child has 18, they're wanting independence, they're trying to do what's called differentiation. So they're trying to move away from the family, and trying to figure out who are they separate from their families. And I think that's a really challenging thing for parents, because they're like, oh, I want to protect them, I want to do everything for them. And the child's like, stay stay far, far away for like, give me some space, I need to move away, I need some time to kind of be my own person and figure out who I am, as Andrea or who I am as a way from, you know, what our, you know, families traditions are talking about this is, is so interesting, because really, every kid has to go through it right, especially during that college phase. And so, I know you had mentioned that this usually happens more commonly for women and being relational, but there's still a relationship between fathers and their children. So what is causing that difference, why it's not really as much the case for men or for the father figures and their children. So I think the big case is, so women, and people will probably argue with me about like gender differences and how they don't exist. But like, I'm a big proponent of like, there's differences in the genders. And so women tend to be have this role of being much more nurturing. And so they they have that side where they have the connection, they're talking to their children every day, they're providing their children, you know, emotional support, whereas a lot of the time fathers, their main role is to be a provider. And so like, think about like conversations that you have with your dad. I know, like my conversations with my dad is like, hey, what do you need? How can I help you? Like, do you need me to pick up milk for the kids? Like, it's very much like, let me be a provider for you, like, hey, how much money do you need is, you know, for the 18 to 25 years of age, it's a lot of the time, it's how much like, what money do you need? How can I provide for you? How can I make your life better? And so fathers are used to playing the role of the provider, whereas mothers are much more likely to play the role of the nurturer. Got it? That makes perfect sense. So I've had a lot of friends just have kids over the past couple years. And the conversations are, I can't believe I have to let go of them one day. So taking a more kind of proactive approach. Let's start there. As parents to young kids as they're growing up, what does that transition the baton handoff look like when it comes to independence and letting your child make decisions ultimately zeroing in on that 18 to 25 age gap. What are what can parents do better? So I think the first thing that you mentioned, so that kind of sparked an idea in my head is that we need to be mindful. And we need to live in the present moment. And don't start worrying and being like, Oh, my God, my kids are gonna leave me Sunday. And it's like, that's not healthy. Like you have so much time to enjoy them right now. So be in the present moment, enjoy the things that they are doing. Now they can answer your other question of like, how can we give them more independence? Well, like by adolescence, you should be they should be getting more and more independence, because that is the main developmental stage during to the teenagers is autonomy, they are supposed to be figuring out, like, you know, being able to do things themselves and make those stupid decisions, because that's how they learn from those decisions. Now, for younger kids, it's all about natural consequences. So natural consequences are the things that just naturally kind of hit us because we made a bad choice. So a lot of the time, like, the story that I always give is the one time my son, he, you know, didn't want to put on his jacket. And I was like, Okay, fine. Like it's middle. It's the beginning of March in October, or not October in March, and it's or an alpha male, and it's freezing outside. And he's going to learn. And so yeah, within five minutes of being outside, he was like, my mom cold. And I was like, Okay, next, I'm gonna put on your jacket, right? And he's like, Yep, so I was like, perfect. And so it Yeah, and I didn't have to nag him. And so it's letting them make mistakes, and being there to support them. When they make those mistakes, then when you get up to like the 18th, and 25 years of age, again, at that point, like you, they should be doing things for themselves. Like you should be teaching them life skills in the teenage years. So that when they go to college, they're not the kid that doesn't know how to do laundry, and has to ask like their roommate how to do laundry, or I know like my brother struggling with it right now with my niece, she just started college, she doesn't even know how to use her her debit card. Like, because they have done so much for her that she had to call them one day when she was at the grocery store and was like, What do I do, and they're like, you give them like, you swipe the card Come on now. And so just those little things and continue to like teach them, but only and a lot of the time I use the word scaffolding, you're only giving them enough support, so they can be successful. And so you're always constantly like removing the assistance that you're giving them, so that they can learn how best to do things with as little support from you as possible. Now, that's difficult, because we want to do everything for our kids, because we want our children to be successful. But by not doing the scaffolding or not letting them to learn from natural consequences. You're not setting them up for success. I like that visual of the scaffolding that makes a lot of sense. But then let's speak to the parent who's hearing what you're saying, say, well, obviously, that's terrifying to be able and able to just trust them like that. So I know you're a parent yourself. So you've had to go through this. So what has been your experience and how you have taught yourself to kind of not even suppress, but overcome the fear of your children getting hurt in the process? Well, that's probably for getting hurt is not like my biggest thing. I think probably my biggest struggle is scaffolding. So I have a hard time because I'm always trying to get the three of them like out the door. So I'm like, Oh, let me just do that. And I was like, in the back of my mind, I'm like, No, you need to let them do it, because it's going to take a little bit longer right now. But then they're going to actually be able to do it by themselves. And so using a lot of coping thoughts, what I call coping thoughts, is like when a negative thought pops into your head, you're going to hit it with a more positive, practical, rational thought. So mine is like whenever I find myself trying to do too much, I'm like, You need to sit back. Let them you know, do what they need to do, they will learn and eventually it'll be faster. But right now you just got to kind of take it. The other thing that I do with scaffolding, is because I know that it's one of my weaknesses. I let my husband a lot of the time do the scaffolding. So if it's like riding bikes, like I let him take the lead because he's much better at scaffolding than I am. Gotcha. No, that's, that's super helpful. And obviously it must help as well being able to do it as a team. So let's kind of move the needle and zoom in on a different aspect of it. Children who are adult children, or maybe it's just even entering the college age or higher? What can kids do better in this setting? I mean, obviously, it's easy to say give grace, you know, to your parents. But other than that, what are some tactical and practical steps that going into adulthood or adult children are able to do as they navigate this transition? I think the biggest thing is figuring out what your boundaries are. So like, what are your expectations? What or I was talking about it with? In family therapy I was talking about it needs and wants, what is it that you need from your parents? And what is it that you want from the relationship with your parents? And ideally, the parents also answering that question? Because then the two of you can sit down together and have a conversation. Hopefully, we're doesn't get emotional. Like emotionally, like, you know, kind of connecting, that's a good thing. But like, over emotional, that's not really what we want, where they can have a conversation of like, what is it that you need? What is it that I need? Okay, can I meet those needs, because you might have a child being like, I only need to talk to you once a week. And the parent might be like, I need to talk to you for five days, five days a week. And it's like, well, that's, that's not going to maybe maybe the child's willing to give a little bit and is willing to say, Okay, I'll talk to you two times a week. But then I think it's also the responsibility of the parent to think, Okay, why, why do I feel like I need to talk to my child five days a week? And like, what is it saying about me, and then also having a conversation about once, and so like, it may be maybe that's not a need, maybe you only need to talk to your child, you know, one time a week, but you would like to talk to them for five times a week. And so having those conversations, I remember, I was working with a adopted a mother who adopted two girls from China, and her husband had passed away. So now she's trying to raise teenage girls all by herself. And she wanted her eldest to hug her, like, every single day. And the eldest was like, I am not a huggy person. I do not want like, the moms like I need a hug every day. And we're like, Okay, well, can you get that need met somewhere else? Because this is this is going to not be a good relationship. And so having those conversations about what is it that you need? What is it you want, and be receptive towards hearing what your child is saying? And not like throwing in like the card of like, on the parent, you're going to do what I say? Yeah. Well, that's that sounds super hard, though. But also a revolutionary concept of just sitting down and putting into boxes, what's a need versus one and then communicating it? Yeah. So no, that's, that's super helpful right there. I guess my next question around that would be, how does a conversation like that, when it's two different people's ideas regarding expectations? Not get emotional? Or how would you best navigate that conversation? What what are some things that you have seen in your experience that, that helps ease any potential tension there, I think like kind of, you're allowed to go in and say what you want, or and say what you need, say what you want. But then if one person becomes too emotional, it's okay to take a break. And it's okay to table that conversation. That conversation does not need to happen all in one sitting. Like, it might be like, Oh, we can talk about this for you know, 1020 minutes, okay, now, one person needs to take a break, and we need to table it for 10 to 20 minutes. And we can do that, and then come back. And a lot of the time I see where some people because we all, we all approach those kinds of conversations differently. And like some people are like, you need to talk to me, and we need to work this out. And other people are like, whoa, like, I need some space. And it's being aware of what the approach of each person is, and respecting that. So if both people are like, we need to work it out, well, then that works perfectly. And if both people are like, we need some space, again, that works perfectly. But then if there's one person that's like, we need to work it out, and the other person is like, we need some space, you need to accept that the person that needs space, need space, and give them that space, give them that time, give them that break, so that they can come back when they are not emotional. And sometimes like if you've tried this conversation, and it goes emotional every single time, well, then maybe it's time to bring in like a third like a mediating person. So a third person who cares for them both, or maybe even a therapist to have this conversation and maybe it's just a one time session, but that could also be a thing. Yeah, I've heard of this happening. So kind of a nuance of what you just said, what if only one party thinks there's a problem, and the other one's like, No, everything's fine. How do you address that? Because then there's heightened emotion with someone feeling like, I don't have me, I'm doing something wrong, everything's good. You know what I'm saying? So Oh, yeah, yeah, what, what does that look like to you. So to me, I would automatically go to one of the coping skills that I love teaching, it's called the deer man. So the deer man is a dialectical behavioral therapy technique that you use, when you are trying, it's an interpersonal technique that you use when you're trying to get an objective met. So what you do is you describe what the person is doing, without like emotion in it. So like, Hey, you are contacting me a lot, or you are trying to be my best friend. And then, so that's the describe piece. The next thing is II. So express the emotion. So you express what how their behavior is impacting you. So I get frustrated, I feel smothered, when you are wanting to be my best friend. The next one is that a so you assert what you would like them to do. So hey, I would really like to have a sit down conversation with you about kind of where our relationship is. And then the R is reinforcement. So what is that person going to get out of having this type of, you know, being willing to meet you where you're at. So it would look like, Hey, I'm getting really frustrated. When you are wanting us to be friends, I don't think I don't think I'm there yet, I would really love for you to be my parents, when I would really like for you to just be my parent. And I think our relationship will blossom will grow. If you if you're just my parent, and I'm your child, and we continue that relationship. And then the M and the A and the n is just you stay mindful. So you stay in the present moment. You remain assertive. And then you're also willing to negotiate, which is a huge thing that we should be teaching our children starting in like the early teen years and then working on, we want them to be able to negotiate these kinds of relationships. And these kinds of conversations with people, including ourselves. That was so helpful that entire description, because it doesn't even need to just be obviously related to this specific conversation. But all conversations, you know, so that is very helpful. Thank you. I know that you. You said this early on, and I want to come back to it because you definitely were ruffling some feathers. When you said that you don't necessarily think that parents being best friends with their children works. Can you speak more to that just openly why you've come to that conclusion. So I think not even best friends. But I think so first off, I will say that prior to age 18, you should not be your child's friend, not even their friend, you are their parent. My five year old son made me laugh the other day because him and I had I like reprimanded him and he wasn't happy about it. So then he like stormed off. And then I came back and he was like he gave me a hug. And he was all happy. And I was like, Oh, are we friends again? And he goes mama, you're not my friend. You're my mama. And I was like, yes, yeah, that is right. i Wow there and I am not your friend and nor will I ever be. Because, like, they don't need a friend. They can make friends. They need a parent for that first 18 years. Now afterwards, I think the power differential between parents and children is just too is too much. It's been like that for 18 years. And then all of a sudden, we are now trying to change. The other thing with that is define what a friend is. So so I'm gonna put that back on you. What is a friend? define that for me? Yeah, no, that's a great question. What does that look like? Yeah, I think what what most people want as a friend, so I'll speak generically as someone who's always there for them. Someone they can go to conversationally, and you you feel loved when you're with that person, and vice versa in a mutual healthy kind of friendship relationship. So that's what I would say. Do you so in that friendship, would it be reciprocal? I mean, ideally, I would love for it to be yes. But that's not always the case. Sure. Right. Yeah. We would love our friendships to be reciprocal. Yeah. And so my thing is, do are there topics that you would talk to a friend that you want your parents sharing with you? Yeah, that's a great point. That done that definitely helped me reframe it. Like there are things that Like, I will tell my mom, like, I'll tell my mom or I'll tell my dad. But I actually don't want to hear that same like topic about their life. And so I think, with that support piece, I think parents should, in my opinion, parents should always be providing a supportive role. And when they need support, they go to their spouse, or they're going to their parent, or they're going to their sibling, or they're going to their friends. And they're not putting all of that pressure on their child who's much younger than them to have to be able to deal with whatever it is that they are experiencing. I say no, that makes total sense. And that's very eye opening when you frame it from that reciprocity. angle. So and the other thing, the other thing with that is finances. Like, would you go to your if you're not independent yet, and right now, the majority of people aren't independent until after 25 years of age. And now with I think it was Obama that switched the health insurance, you can be on your parents health insurance until 26. It's like, so you're technically not independent, until you're 2625 26. Like, are you asking your friends for money? Mm hmm. And it's like, oh, no, like, I'm not asking my friends for money. Like, yeah. Or I'm not asking them to be on, you know, to be on their health insurance. Yeah. Wow. So with that kind of framing you just presented? What does a healthy? Sorry, if I hit the mic? What does a healthy adult child and parent relationship look like in your mind? I think it is one of where they have moved more towards being more equals, but they're probably not going to be equals, like there's always going to be that power differential. Like because the parent always has the option. And I don't mind saying it's a good option of being like, I brought you into this world. But you know, yeah, I'm like, don't say. But I think so it looks like talk, talk. And I think it really depends on the individual person's needs and wants. And so like, what is it so they're talking as often as both people want, they're providing the kind of support that they each need and want. And they're just like, the parent is always to me, parents are always there for their kids. And so, and, you know, providing them with insight when the child wants insight, providing assistance when the child needs assistance, and then eventually, probably, if you maintain that really good relationship, though, there will probably come a time where the roles will be reversed. And the child will now become a parent, because the parent is now an older age, and they need more assistance and help. And so but I don't ever think there is a time where I'm like, yeah, like, I've been to bachelorette parties, where the mom of the bride comes and I'm like, this is super weak, like, this is super weird. But I'm like, okay, that's that's their relationship, I get it. But it's always like, it's always a little kind of weird. To see people on that same when the parent is on the same playing, like level as Sure. So in your mind, it's healthy if it has this ebb and flow kind of nature to it instead of being equal. Yes, I think yeah, I think these like they each person is getting what they need out of the relationship mat. And sometimes that's going to be talking to each other every day. And other times, it's going to be okay, no, like, we're not talking every day. We're just going to talk like every other week. And I remember I was working with a family recently, where the girl is away at college. And the mom was in she was doing differentiation. So she's pulling away. She's trying to figure out who she is and what she wants out of life. And it was really upsetting to the mom. And the mom started engaging in boundary disturbances. So she started trying to force what she wanted or needed on her child and her child kept pushing farther and farther away and started doing like the mom started doing things that maybe she shouldn't have been doing. And then eventually, like we had a convert into mom, I talked to the mom separately, and she's like, well, all of my friends have this kind of relationship with their daughters. And I'm like, But your daughter doesn't want this relationship. And it's not even like that healthy for a college student to be talking to their mom every single day and how How'd the parent respond to that? There was like she, I think she eventually like realized it like it, she became emotional. But that was okay. Because like, it was just her and I and her husband in the session at that time, where I was like, we need to pull, like, we need to like, like, it's okay, cuz she was like, Why can't like share all the stories? And I'm like, well, that's okay. Like, I understand it's hurtful, and you need to feel all of your feelings. And so she she took some time and felt all of her feelings. And then we ended up having a session with the parents and their daughter to talk about, okay, what does this relationship now look like? So that everyone's needs, and wants are met as much as we possibly can? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And of course, I'm asking because I'm not a parent. So I have no experience in this category. I've been imagining what it would be like to put myself in those shoes. But so let's speak to any potential moms specifically who are listening to this episode right now, and are feeling a lot of feelings. What would you say to a mom right now who's just like, Man, this feels like me. Now, I don't like it thinking about it. I don't know what to do. What What would you say to them? So I would say like, let's journal, let's figure out let's throw all of our emotions, all of our thoughts down on that piece of paper, and start figuring out what, why do we want to have this kind of relationship with our child? And what needs maybe what needs are others is not being met? And how can they get those needs met in a much more appropriate, you know, way, then to kind of put those needs and demands on their child. So my always thing is, like, maintain I think a lot of it right now is, this is one of my biggest pet peeves is that when I see it only only with Fido, I saw it with a few dads. But when parents throw everything into being a parent, and they lose who they are. And so like what my biggest pet peeve is when parents will come up to me and be like, Hi, I'm Charlotte's mom. I'd be like, okay, but what's what's, what's your name? And, like, I've had it where like, I've gone to a conference and one of my research assistants, she won a regional research award, and both of her parents came up to me, and they're like, Hey, I'm Sally's Mom. Hi, I'm Sally's dad. And they had, they didn't even tell me their names. And so like, I had no idea who their names were. So I had to like, look at Sally's boyfriend, and be like, What are her parents names? And he's like, yeah, they do that all the time. Like, they don't have an identity outside of being a parent. Wow. And I think that gets really hard, especially when your kids transition into the college years. Because it's like, okay, well, what are you supposed to be doing, if you're not running the kids to all of their activities, and doing these things in these things. And so I think you need to make sure that you're maintaining and working constantly working on your identity, and what you value, and then also maintaining and exploring relationships outside of your children. Yeah, I love that you just said that, because I can see how easy it could be wanting to be the best parent you can and in the process, accidentally, leaving all of your friendships behind, because your child becomes or children becomes your world. So what are some steps for parents with what younger children that they can do right now to make sure they don't get into that cycle, but have healthy boundaries for their adult friendships. And being a parent at the same time, that both and situation. And so I think the thing is, I always preach self care, like you owe like, to me, everyone should be to using 30 minutes of self care every single day to do what they want to do something that's going to rejuvenate them. Now it might be exercising, it might be journaling, and meditating. It might be reading the Bible. Or it might be more social. So I know I have a mom that I have. I have prescribed her mom Keishon. So like her taking like a three like a 2048 hour period, where she has no mom responsibilities. And when I take a mom Keishon I go off by myself, or like my husband takes the kids and like I'm left in the house all by myself to do what I want for like a weekend where she always goes and is with another friend. And so I think like finding those times where you can maintain those relationships. Is it in a Bible study? I know like a group of my friends and I were going to start a Bible study have you over probably the next few weeks on like Jesus and women, because it was recommended for me by someone else. But like setting aside that time, that you can maintain your friendships, and that you're not losing them. Because then it's like, it's kind of like think about like when you're a teenager, and you get into a new relationship, and you've like, put all of your friends to the side. Yeah, yeah. And then all because you're all about this new relationship, and then the relationship breaks up, because most relationships in the teenage years break up. And then you go back to your friends and your friends like, oh, like Johnny's not, you know, available, or he's not around you anymore, like, and so then you have to repair that relationship. And it's much easier to maintain relationships, more so than repairing relationships. Yeah, no, that's a really great example. Because I mean, dare I take this a step further and say that in that specific example of making someone your world, it becomes idolatrous, and that is, for sure, unhealthy and extremely toxic. And so when you frame it like that, that's very convicting an eye opening for me, because it really makes it a priority for us to be able to recognize, hey, do I have healthy boundaries here and actually working to create healthy relationships in every sphere of my life, so that that's very helpful. So that's a great step for people who are parents to young children right now. But let's say that there's parents listening whose kids have already graduated college. And maybe they're listening to that. And they're thinking, Oh, no, oh, no, I've definitely done that. I'm guilty of it. And they want to make more friends, but because you know, they're older, they are a little bit nervous about it, because they haven't done it forever. What What would you say to those parents? And so I think that is a great because I think one thing that people don't realize is that it's so hard to make friends in adulthood. Like once you leave college, like, it is so challenging to make friends, especially for me, like I was talking about, like how, even though I'm like a relationship expert, I talked about how I'm like a friend stop, because I have two like really close friends. And I'm also introverted. And so it's a little bit harder for me to make friends when I'm out and about. But so here's my here's my tips for making friends. I think you need to figure out what are interests that you have or interests that you want to explore. And then look to see whether or not there's groups in your area, that kind of get into that type of stuff. So like maybe you're a runner, find a running group, maybe you're a knitter, so go find like a knitting group. Like there's all of these groups out there. Now that COVID is kind of dying down. There's all of these groups out there that you can tap into, to meet people with similar interests as yourself. That is going to allow you to build those, those friendships. I remember my one of my closest friends, Liz, her mom, she works for United. And she before she retired, she would just take trips, like by herself without her husband, because her husband doesn't like to travel. And then she would just find like other friends and be like, Hey, do you want to travel? Like, let's go like, I'll get the I'll buy the airplane tickets. And so they would go to Taiwan. And that's awesome. Yeah. And so they would just travel, and just kind of be together and build those friendships. Wow, that's awesome. I think that's a great starting point. Because yes, it's hard. But it's also worth it. At the end of the day, right? This is, friendships or relationships are the lifeblood. And what actually gives us life I think I mean, as Dr. John Delaney says, we're created for connection. So yeah, no, that makes total sense to me. Um, I know, we've talked about boundaries here and there across the conversation. But I would love for you to unpack and explain because you are an expert, why boundaries are actually important, and not just a want, but a neat. So if you want to learn more about boundaries there, Dr. Henry Cloud has written the book on boundaries, it's titled boundaries. And in that he talks about how we all understand physical boundaries, because of how our properties work. Like we all have, you know, these imaginary lines. There's not any one like unless you have like fences or gates around like your whole property, but for the most part, like I know where my property stops, and where my neighbor's property ends, or starts. And so like, I know, that there's like the social contract, not to go and do random, you know, inappropriate things on my neighbor's yard yard, like so my kids aren't going to like go and like dig up. look like my neighbor's yard. Because that's not that's not kosher. Like that's not cool. And so the same thing with our emotional boundaries. It's like, what is it that energizes us? And what is it that kind of drains us. And so we want people in our lives that are going to rejuvenate us and bring energy to our lives. And we want those energy suckers, those people that just kind of take our energy away, we want them to go away. And a lot of the time, the reason why they're energy subgroup suckers is because they are violating our boundaries, whether we're aware that they're doing it or not, like I remember, we had this couple of friends that we love the guy. And but the girl was an energy sucker, sucker. And the reason why she drained my husband and I's energy was because everything was always like, negative, like, this is terrible. This is awful. This is terrible. This is awful. And we were realizing like, that's just not what we want, like, out of a friendship. That's not who that she's like, draining us because she's putting all of this negative, you know, negative vibes on us. It's like, so you want to kind of say, like, okay, what are those? What are those expectations that you want from your friends? What do you need from people in your life, and maybe like they and respect other people's boundaries, so like, a great one. It for me is like, My husband doesn't like soft touches. And so like I the beginning parts of our relationship, like I would do soft touches, because I love soft touches, but it like drives like, sends like nasty things like up his spine. And so for me, like I stopped giving him soft touches, because that's a boundary violation for him. And that must have been hard for you because you're like, but I like it. And he's like, I don't care. I don't like it. Exactly. But I feel like yeah, happen. So that's a hard thing right all the time. But people are like, how can you not like that? I love this. And it's like, no, like, you have to respect their boundaries. So if someone tells you that they don't like something like, then you should stop doing it, or not do it anymore. And it might take you and that other person might get me to give you a little bit of grace. Because as you remember, like, oh, yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't work for that person doesn't work for that person. You need to give that person some grace. But ultimately don't continue to do things that the person doesn't like, and maybe even consider doing things that the person likes. So I think like, another example is like my husband, like, we had a conversation recently, we did what's called Love mapping. And so he found out that one of the things that I would like to see more of is him speaking my love language, and my love languages and gifts. Okay, so all of a sudden, he started buying me more flowers. And when, when, and so like that, to me, like he's respecting my boundaries, and he's respecting that I need him to be more affectionate. So like listening to what people are saying, and kind of doing, going along with it and meeting their needs and their wants as best as you possibly can. Yeah, no, I think that's, that's great insight there. And, you know, my therapist and I, when we were talking last week, she was bringing up the verse about how love covers a multitude of wrongs, and how often we can take that out of context to be like, I'll be a doormat. And you know what, like, it's fine. Like, I want to have boundaries, but like, whatever. And what you're saying is no, this is this is imperative for you to have boundaries, and it may hurt in the process getting there, it may hurt someone else. But ultimately, that's not up to you, whether they get hurt, you're trying to express what you need, and in turn, be able to reciprocate someone else's needs as well. So yeah, no, I think that's a, it's a great insight you brought up there. When I had the conversation with Ken Coleman, he put it in a great way. He said, I would rather disappoint someone than to resent them. And so like if you're constantly like if you set up a boundary, and like they're disappointed on you, that's, that's on them. But like, if they are, if you're just continually letting them be a doormat, like you're being a doormat, well, now you're going to resent them. And it's much easier in my opinion, to overcome disappointment than it is to overcome resentment because resentment is just going to be that negative like festering, and it's going to be a heck of a lot harder to get over. Then that disappointment piece. Well, so true. I love that. To go back to that, that piece where you said you were so Hang up boundaries, because that one woman in that that married couple, she was just negative all the time. Let's say that someone's listening to that exact thing. And they have no idea that they are that woman from that example. What would you say, to help someone with that self awareness element of doing a check? Or like an inventory on myself? Like, how are people receiving me? What if I'm doing this to others? And I have no idea, because that's scary for someone to approach and be like, Hey, you're draining me, you know what I'm saying? What would you say to that person? I would say to that person is to be caught, like, be aware of how, like how often people are like contacting with you, or like connecting with you, like, if you're the one that's always having to reach out to people, and like, kind of initiate an initiate, initiate, and you're not getting a lot of like, hey, yeah, let's totally do that. That that might be like a sign, like the bait bait. Like, maybe you're a negative Nancy, and people don't necessarily want to be around you. So just kind of like, Hey, are you if you're asked them when like, hey, so like, do you want to hang out on Wednesday night? And they're like, oh, no, I'm like, washing my hair. Like, that's, that's a bad sign. And they don't give you I think the other big thing when I talked about relationships is if the person can't do the time that you gave, but they don't give an alternative time or an alternative thing. That's a good sign that they don't really want to spend time with you. Because I know for me, like if someone would like it that I wanted to hang out with was like, Hey, can you do this on Friday, but I can't do it on Friday. I'll be like, I can't do it Friday, but I can do it Saturday. So just kind of giving that alternative time as a way to like gauge someone's interest in like a friendship or even in a romantic relationship? Sure. No, that's great. And I want to clarify that real quick, because I know that one of the things I discuss often is that when you're building relational wealth, I have never seen it being equal balance. I'm always the one who's reaching out because I'm trying to be intentional. But the difference that Dr. Andrea is saying is that watch the response. It's not about how many times you reach out, but how interested people are to actually meet back with you. So yeah, no, I think that's super helpful right there. Well, this has been a very insightful conversation. But of course, I just want to leave it open for you. Is there anything that we didn't talk about on this that you would love to address? I think the other thing that we probably haven't talked about is like one of the worst things that you so we bring it back to like the original topic of parents and their adult children. I think one of the worst things that you can do, if you are a parent, and trying to establish our friendship with your adult child is like flip flop the power differential. So like if you're trying to be their best friend, and then you're and you're doing that for a few weeks, and then in a little bit like you flip it and you're like, No, now I'm the authority figure. Well, now your child doesn't know like what to get from this relationship. They don't know whether or not they should approach you, or whether or not they should pull away. They don't know what their expectations of you are. I know I've been working with this young, this client in their early 20s. And their parent is just like, you need to figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life. And you're smoking too much marijuana. And then when I had the conversation with the client, the client was like, she buys me my marijuana. And I was like, Well, now that using, you're telling your child, you're smoking too much marijuana, and then you're the one purchasing the marijuana. Yeah, like comma. And then like, they're like, she needs to figure it out. And they're like, very aggressive. And then they like pull away and they're very permissive. And so like, you have to stay consistent. And then you have to have those conversations about the changes in roles. Because whenever there is a problem in relationships, it's usually because the roles are changing of the two people, but they haven't negotiated those roles again. Wow, that's, that's super great. And yeah, going back to that, because I know that we talked about it kind of midway through the episode, but coming in with that whole dear man technique that you outlined. And addressing putting out a piece of paper wants versus needs, and both people coming to the table, Billy being willing to present them and be open minded to negotiate meet in the middle to find a way to create a relationship balance where both parents and the adult child thrice. Absolutely. That's awesome. Well, I thank you so much for your time. Doctor. You are the best. This was riveting. Honestly, this was an amazing conversation. And I can't wait to hear how many people this helps. So thank you so much for your time, and for being on the accidentally intentional podcast. Goodness, I hope you found that episode incredibly insightful and helpful in all of your relationships in general. But if you would like to shout out Dr. Andrea Mata and thank her for being on this episode. Please feel free to follow her on Instagram at Dr. Dre Mata Dr. Dr. E, M, A, T A. And also be sure to check out her own show the bright spot podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts, I will put all those links as well as the boundaries book that she mentioned in the show notes below. You know what time it is time for some takeaways. Takeaway number one, if you are a parent to currently a young child, it's important to remember that we have to let kids make mistakes and be there to support them when they make the mistakes. It's not a matter of if it has to be when TAKEAWAY NUMBER TWO on that same topic give only enough support for your children to be successful. And I love that visual she gave of scaffolding as the example number three, if you are an adult child and or a parent who's ready to have this conversation that we discussed today, it's important that both parties come in having figured out the question, what are my needs, and what am I wants and be prepared to discuss it and of course, be prepared to listen to what the other person has to say as well. Number four, I thought it was incredibly helpful whenever she broke down that deer man technique when trying to get an objective met. And to recap the deer man technique is as follows The D is for describe what is happening without emotion. The E is for express how the behavior is impacting you using I feel statements A is for assert what you would like them to do R is for reinforcement, which unpacks what the other party would get out of this. So for instance, here's what the When will be the M is for mindful and remembering to stay in the present moment. A is for asserting again. And the N is for be prepared to negotiate throughout the conversation. And this dear man technique, as she addressed is helpful for any conversation in any relationship in your life. I found another interesting and eye opening takeaway was that the goal and the role of parents is to support their children and remain in that supportive role. And when parents need support, it's important for them to go to either their parents, their friends, people in their own life and not put that what could be a burden onto their own children as they cannot be that equal source of support, no matter how old those children are. Number six, it's important for parents to not throw their entire identity into being a parent insofar as they lose themselves in the process. Number seven was that quote, I would rather disappoint someone than end up resenting them when it comes to realizing that you may need to have a boundaries conversation with someone else that you love. And number eight, I thought it was so interesting, whenever Dr. Matta said the problems in relationships usually stem from a role change that hasn't been negotiated yet. So again, as I said, I love today's episode. And I felt like in a lot of ways, it was a masterclass on how to have hard conversations with the people that you care about. So guys, if you felt like this episode impacted you please share it, we want to get the word out there, post it on social, send it to somebody that you know might be in the same scenario. I love you guys so much. And I'm so honored to be able to continue working on building relational wealth with all of you together. So let's keep it up. You know where to find me. I'll see you back here in two weeks on the accidentally intentional podcast. Was there someone that came to mind as you were listening to this episode? Because if so, please share it with them. 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