Today's episode has been requested by quite a few people and I am so happy to say my friends the time has come. Today's guest has been a longtime friend of mine. His name is Lou Phillips. Now Lou and I met in college and then coming right out of college, we ended up doing the same ministry tour and we're on the road for an entire year. Now Lou ended up staying on that tour for two more years. And then his life took a wild turn because he ended up going to Oxford University in England. Yes, you heard that right. He spent a year there studying theology and got his certificate of theology from Oxford University and also spent his time training at what's called aka the Oxford center of Christian apologetics. He is currently a global speaker for RZ im which is short for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, and he specializes in speaking on topics such as meaning identity and purpose, and how they relate to the Christian worldview. Now, as a result of this, this conversation is primarily geared towards quote unquote, believers and Christians. Specifically, how can I remain content and happy while being single when marriage seems to be displayed to us as the singular end all Beall? Now the reason I chose Liu to be the person that speaks about being content, in your quote, unquote, singleness is because for the past 29 years of his life, Lou has lived as a single man, so he has a lot of wisdom to impart to all of us. But hold on, because if you're married, I think this conversation is actually also going to be incredibly valuable for you. Because Lou also dives into the meaning of marriage from a biblical standpoint, and we discuss tangible ways in which you can understand how to come alongside and best support your single friends. If you are watching this on YouTube, then you are probably going to realize pretty quick, that the footage seems to appear blurry. And for that, I sincerely apologize. I'm so embarrassed. For some reason, the camera did not autofocus for this whole conversation. So I hope you can just use your imagination with this, to pretend that you're watching this conversation from behind a foggy window or like you just forgot to put your glasses on. But no, seriously, I'm so sorry. And I'm going to do my best to make sure it does not happen again. So crazy enough, I only intended to do one episode with Lou. But our conversation got so deep and so rich that we ended up talking for nearly two hours straight. So I'm actually breaking this up into a part one and part two, to follow up within the next two weeks. So this is of course, part one. Now I did want to give some context, because multiple times in this conversation, Lou uses the word sexuality and I want to give the full framework so you understand exactly what he's talking about. Because when Lou uses the term sexuality, in summary, he's just saying all encompassing sexual desire. So I just want to make sure we're all on the same page from the beginning. And so Hey, without further ado, you know how excited I am. Let's dig into this extremely valuable conversation I have with my friend Lou, on how to be content and happy in your singleness. And also the meaning of marriage. So this is a special episode because Luke, I don't know if you knew this, but when I start when I started the podcast in the introduction, I talked about how the first time I ever had a meal day on campus. I had cue cards in my pocket with questions because I was so nervous because I wasn't used to engaging in conversation. Did you know you were my first meal date? Did you know I had cue cards in my pocket? Yes. I really didn't. And we're still friends today. Would you believe it? It's so weird. I know. I was so weird. That's why I do this podcast is that so people don't have to be as weird as i What do you mean? Cute. You had questions? I don't remember either. Right up swear. Like I literally had a couple of questions in my pocket that I would refer down to if I thought that the conversation was gonna be dead air. Yeah. Wow. Did you ever use them? No, never. Oh, thank you. So glad I was. Am I still even in frame? Yes, you are. Good. Great. So Lou and I had been friends for years since college, which has been Yeah. Almost eight years. I've been. Yeah, probably would have been 2010 years that would have been your you're going at your freshman and sophomore. Yeah, that's where we met with rental babies. That's right. We weren't even in our 20s yet. And now look at us. Yeah, you're a grown man. Thank you. I'm just me. So Lu. Today we're gonna be talking about how to be happy, joyful content. All the words in singleness. Yeah. Because I get so many questions on this. And being single myself, I can tell you that this is a problem. Because it's Hallmark Christmas movie watching season. And I just I feel like just another like my birthday, Thanksgiving. They're all happening and I'm just like, I just want one birthday, Thanksgiving where I'm with somebody else, you know? So I feel like this is worse for girls. But I mean, I'm only speaking on behalf of girls, so I don't know. Yeah, no, I think You're absolutely right. And that would be the first thing I would say is like it is going to be significantly more difficult for girls and women, I think in the society we live in, especially in Christian culture for sure. You are told from a very young I mean, not even just Christian culture, look at Disney look at every every move that's presented your way. Yeah. Is it as a woman, as a girl, your life is incomplete until you have that one person for sure. There's an aspect of that for guys as well. It's just not nearly to the level. And that's yeah, that's you can see that historically sit for variety reasons. So yeah, I think finding contentment within singleness is difficult on its own. Then you have the level of pressure from family and society and everything else around you saying, specifically as a woman, you're not complete without? Yeah, yeah. Husband, or Yeah, he's just crazy. So true. And you know, what's interesting about you is that up until this point, at this age, you have lived single as a single man. And like, if you're watching the YouTube, like, you're attractive, so people would be like, This is weird. Why are you why are you single? And attractive and not dating? And like, Why? Why are you choosing to do this to yourself? Yeah, kind of thing. Yeah. So address that? Yeah, that's a great question. I think I grew up with, you know, so I grew up in a big family. I'm the youngest of six kids, all my siblings and are married, all of them have kids at 13 nieces and nephews. I think the oldest any of my siblings were were 25 years old when they got married. I'm 29. Now, I'm one I think the Lord has given me a decision I remember very young just being told, it's actually this is the ring I've always worn. My dad gave me this ring when I was 13. And just said, Hey, this is how I expect you to act as a man. And this actually how God expects you to act as a man is to respect women to know that sex, your sexuality was designed for one woman in the context of marriage. And so I took that very seriously. I didn't do that perfectly by any means. But I knew that this is a very serious thing. And so when I was in high school, I just saw, I just saw the harm and the heartache that that happened from it. I didn't actually see the beauty. I saw the fun, I don't know. But I saw friends become enemies I saw like, I'm like, there's something more to our sexuality. I was like, I'm still trying to figure this one out. And I was also very academically driven. So I was like, I ain't got time for a girlfriend. In many ways, same thing. Same with college. And but what I've found is that, gosh, there's something so beautiful about singleness. And there's something so beautiful about marriage. And I think we pit the two against each other when actually the Bible describes them both as very beautiful ways to live your life. I don't know how to explain this other than I really do believe Christ is the bread of life. I found him to be satisfactory, like in my own heart, like there is a contentment that I think only the Lord has brought me. And I don't find that to be shallow. I'm like, I really mean it's do I want to be married? Yes, it is a huge desire. Man, I would love to have a wife and kids and if God gives me that, so I mean, Praise His name. But if he doesn't, and I mean, every bit if he doesn't, he says, Look, I want you to live the rest of your life single for my namesake. I say praise his name. And I've seen both the beauty of those things. And I think the Lord's just given me examples in my life to see like, we're currently at my brother's house right now. Marriage is hard. Yeah. It's like it's beautiful. And this is not taking, but I think we often get such a such an ideal. Fireworks. Yeah, exactly. It's there. But so you and I have talked about this before, but there's an inner angst to our soul that our sexuality, our romantic life are just will not satisfy. And I've heard you asking, I've actually heard you say this. It's almost like eating. It's like eating something but not swallowing. And he's like, like, you're never fool. You're never fool. Because you're just chewing something you're spitting it back out because you're actually digesting it. That's what I think if you place your identity you place your this lived experience, like I'm going to be filled here within even romance, even even a godly relationship. That's the craziest thing, even in college, it will not do it. God has designed you to receive his affirmation, his love his acceptance, and that's the only thing that's gonna satisfy you. Yeah. So yeah, sorry. I don't know if I actually answered the question. I'm doing this. Sorry. I think I'm single right now. Because ultimately I just this where I think God's called me. The way I honor God right now in singleness is to, to be celibate, to treat women, the way that God has designed me to share in the way he's talked about women, how I do, I don't see them as objects. And until that changes until I meet someone that I believe the best way I've seen like how you choose a spouse is by Tim Keller he talks about it's almost like you see someone you see what God is doing in their life. You say, I want to come alongside that. Not here, it'd be somebody that would really, really go well with me. Here's someone that could really just uphold it now. It's like, I want to look at somebody be like, Man, I see what God is doing. And I want to come alongside you and yeah, you want to run together. It's like how do we wreck this world? For the kingdom? That's like my, that's my line for like what I want in a wife. It's like I want somebody that is so serious, that is so in love with Christ, so in love with God that ultimately she does didn't need me. Yet we are we are complementary. We're complementary, and we desire to live this life alongside each other in order to do the most we can for his namesake. You said, you felt like this is where God has called you. And what I liked about what you said is you didn't say season of singleness, because this is where I think it's, it's harmed me, okay, because like, being someone that's been single for, I mean, I only had my first relationship this past summer. And that was at 28 years old. Like, what if someone's season of singleness isn't like a season? It's, it's your entire life until you know, and I feel like it's been challenging in that arena. Because hearing someone say what if you're called to singleness is like saying, this is terminal? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, someone just said, you have cancer. So wow, why do we have that perspective? How can we change the narrative on that? Yeah. Yeah, it's going to start so I'm going to I'm, again, I'm gonna speak from a Christian standpoint, just because I am a Christian, and I can be the most critical of that more than anything else I can't correct. I can't tell society what I think it needs to do. I can tell you what I think the church needs to do. One, we need to take singleness very seriously. And we need to stop treating Singles As in their this weird station of life before they get started. Right. And that starts with the sermons we preach that starts with the groups we form that starts with the way we talk about marriage. Gosh, how many? How many church services or churches? Have you been a part of that? I've done a series on marriage. And how many of them have done a series on singleness? Right? I can't name a church system. Why? Because we believe the lie that it's it's not God's plan. I mean, the amount of times when I speak on singleness that I have a Christian come up to me talking about No, that's not what God like. singleness isn't what God would have been like, well, you have to completely revoke all the words of Paul, when he talks about singleness, because he actually talks about it's like, I wish all of you were single, because you guys, you devote your life. But he's not. But he doesn't say that and saying because marriage is bad, is it? No, there's just a way to devote yourself to Lord, and then you'd have to completely diminish the whole ministry of Christ as a single man. It's like, it's ridiculous. It is a beautiful to live. But we have to actually, what I think we need to do is we need to uphold singleness and bring marriage down. Yeah, not to bring marriage down to a level. It's not no, just bring it down. So it was proper level, which is, here's a good gift by God. But just like every good gift, if we don't use it in its proper context, and we elevate it, if we choose to worship the gift versus the giver. That's idolatry, because idolatry can still be good things. We think idolatry is like worshipping the cow. The the this ridiculous, like not God given gift. No, it's sometimes even the God given gifts is but when we desire that thing over the giver himself, which is, that's our heart. We're constantly wanting something that's not good. Yeah, we have to change that. And that's going to take some time. But I think it's going to start with the church. And the way we treat singles like, here's a great example. You know, when we're in church, when we're gathering people, maybe not leading with a question, When are you going to get married? When you meet a single that's in their upper 20s? Like, what kind of hell are they living in? When every time they go to church? Somebody's just wondering, well, what are you going to start your life? Yeah, it's the way it's a weird thing when people assume you're not fulfilled. And so yeah, I would say that's the there's so much more into that. But that's, that's something to start with is the church and how we need to start talking about singleness. And now we need to elevate it towards its proper status. Yeah, gotcha. What can individuals do better? Like, what what can what can we do whether whether you're, let's let's just keep it even more broad, and whether you're Christian, or not, how can you actually live a life? That's like, you know, what, I don't care. However long the season is like, what have you just not started? Calling it not a season like, Hey, I'm single, like, who cares? Yeah, how long kind of thing but but what's an actionable step that you found you've been able to take in your life that has helped you be content when so many people around you who are in that same? sphere? Could not be? Yeah, very Christian up? So I don't know how to not answer this question without going to Christianity, because it's me only my only answer. And I realize people listening to this could be like, I'm not a Christian. So this is kind of pointless, but like, the contentment that we're searching for the fulfillment, where we were designed to have, I think, can only come from the God has created us. Yeah. And there are even those that are Christian that are still finding, trying to find it elsewhere and still not satisfied. So I'm not saying that once you become Christian you won't struggle with it's clearly there's still, but the reasons why we struggle with it, because we're actually going through the things that are false forms of God. It's not because we're going to the thing itself. The only thing the only thing I found even remotely satisfactory in this life and it brought me a contentment is to know that there's a God that created this all this whole thing. In spite of the way I've lived, he's actually chose to accept me bring him in, bring me into His family and say, Lou, you are My Son, with whom I'm well pleased because the Bible describes that when you become a Christian when you actually give your life to Christ, repent of your sin, you are not closing his Righteousness, righteousness. And you know, for years, I never understood that I didn't understand why that's such a big deal. But the what's so crazy about that, and so scandalous is this idea that comes from when you become a Christian, God actually now views you in the perfection of his son. So you don't have to, you don't go to him as this broken, he didn't see you as the broken flood person, or he or she sees you as the imperfection, and he chooses to accept you in that. And that's a beautiful thing. From there, I can then start looking at the world. Even especially with sexuality, where it's like, man, that looks amazing. And I want that, but knowing that my father in heaven is not withholding any good gift from me. Yes, not he's and that's the zero. That's the that is the right from the get go. What is the first thing we see in the Bible? It's us questioning God. Yeah, but do you really have that? What's best for me? Yeah, because I feel like you're holding something behind your back. And I feel like I need to grab it. I feel like in the graph this because I feel like you're not being truthful. I feel like you're holding something back. And what did we see it actually caused destruction. God is not withholding any good gift from you. Though it may seem that way. And though it can be difficult, he's actually offering himself and the only thing that is actually satisfied my own heart, this existential angst in my heart as if, as if like, what am I here for? Do I have any value in itself? Or is it it's only the value that I produce? No, God actually corrects all that and says, No, you have value simply because I've created you. You created my image. And I deem you, my son, that that type of contentment allows it to go into my singleness and saying, though, I want something good. I don't like a spoiled kid get to be, but I get this. It's like no, Lord, whatever you would have me do because you've proved yourself faithful. And over and over again. It's kind of a sidestep, but you'll get why I'm going there. I used to be really addicted to pornography. Like this is something that's a huge part of that. Because, you know, I wasn't sleeping around. I was doing all these things. So I'm the right Christian kid, but you know, this is okay, because I'm not actually having sex. And I remember when the Lord actually just Oh, my gosh, just convicting me. I was actually in college when when I felt like oh my gosh, this is this has to be dealt with. This is not okay, because I met married men that were still struggling pornography, because I always thought no pornography is this thing that married guys don't struggle with. But I bring up that point. Because when I wanted to get out of that, when I wanted to get out of this toxic mentality of what is sexuality, I do realistically do some some things in my life. Like, there are some things I had to cut out in order for me to follow. And I say that to say, some of us entertain the narrative, that my life isn't fulfilled without without a partner. And yet wonder why we're so unfulfilled. And this may seem harsh, but what films are you watching? Gosh, if you're really struggling with being single, and yet you can't see you're watching, because you said the Hallmark Christmas, or these were made to grow, and you wonder why you feel so angsty is because you're watching a film that says, you're going to be angsty without this, like, yeah, you have to be very careful into what you watch what you entertain, and then also the friends you bring around your life, or the friends around you. Do they understand this? Are they also feeling the same way of like, No, you need to be married to be content or, or your couples in your life actually inviting you into their families? Because what's the scariest thing about being single? It's not not having a partner to share. It's the idea of loneliness. It's like, do I have a family do I haven't? And so I think the result of couples and families actually inviting their single friends in, you'd be surprised and what that the fulfillment that brings us well within sight family. So that's so good. And speaking on that the the term contentment, obviously, it's just like, being okay with it. I think it's a very loose way to, to phrase it, but specifically for you. What are some ways that you would define contentment or ways you've been able to identify? Oh, no, I am content because what you've just presented was a dichotomy. Yeah, because you said I'm content yet. I still want marriage. Yeah. Interesting. So how does that play out for you? Yeah. Oh, thank you. Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, you're right. It's a dichotomy. But it's not a contradiction, right? And that it's an apparent contradiction, because you would think that if you were content you'd be there's no desire. And I would say no. Contentment is this understanding that I've know that God is faithful, and that he's been faithful over and over and over again in my life, that I can trust him, even when it doesn't look like he's doing what I want him to do. There's a quote that says, you know, when we cannot trust God's hand, or know when it doesn't appear like we can see God's hand we have to trust his heart. And where do I go for the accurate of the cross every single time? As a Christian, everything hinges on the cross and what is the crossing, it's saying that God Himself was willing to enter into pain was willing to enter into suffering and give up everything for you and I, for anyone that would be willing to bow the knee and say, Lord, I know I'm not good, but I'm willing to accept it Forgive me, like in the grand scheme of things so our life is a vanishing paper. Like think if one thing this year show me that is my gosh, is life so dang quick and we get so caught up, and all these things that we think are going to try and and yet we chase it and chase it, we chase it and yet It's like, ah, like, because the scariest thing in life is not not having an answer to the question, what's the meaning of your life? Well, the scariest thing is pursuing the thing you think is the meaning of life and finding it empty. Yikes. And I think so good. Thank you. I think we do that. With all realms, sexual is just one of them sexually is the one that's hyper hyper realized right now because of the world we live in. And I think I've been able to find contentment and saying, I know that God has what's good for me. And he desires that for me. And every time that I've been willing to relinquish control, just give it to him, though he takes me on a different path than I would have thought. It's been more exhilarating. It's been more fulfilling. And I've never looked back. And I say that same thing in within sexuality as well. Now, here's the other part of that, the more we've crossed boundaries with the realm of sexuality, and then try to lose things, it's harder. That's a fact, like, and I think that's why a lot of people do struggle with this, because maybe you're very, very active with somebody, or maybe you're there, and then you're now you're trying to losing, that's really, really hard to do. And I applaud those because, you know, one of my, my buddy, one of my closest friends. You know, as a Christian, he, you know, he had sex before marriage. And he said, Man, I'm just so I'm so impressed with you. Because you mean, you've never had sex and like all that. And I reverse. I'm like, Dude, I get that. And I think you could also in some ways, I don't know what I'm missing, in a real sense. Like, I have some ideas. I pet. It's fun I've ever been in my mind. I think it is. Yeah, but he actually is. And he was he was waiting out for years then for his future wife, and then from that point forward, waiting until to have sex with this way. And I told him like, Dude, I've been more impressed with you on that. Because there's something there when you actually knew and you there's an aspect sacrifices, it's harder. Yes. And so I think the more we keep entertaining relationships, and like the casual relationships with thing and sexual, I think it's more difficult to live. So in contentment, I think one of the reasons I've been so content is I've been very careful about the types of things because I know that when you kiss somebody, you're not just kissing someone, such as something really quick, it means something. And I know that seems probably overly religious or like, old fashioned, but now it's I'm sorry, I just don't believe it. I think these things mean something. And the more we're willing to, to deem those things sacred. So that we're that we're honoring the other person as best we can, the more we can actually find a contentment prior to that, because we're saying, I want to find contentment in what God has for me right now. Knowing that if there is something in that, that's great. But here's the last thing. If I don't get these things, the reason why I think it can be so content right now. So it's because if I don't get these things, I still get him in the end. Amazing. And that's, like, that's what I was created for. And I know that's an overreach, like, you're like, Well, what about now? I still found the beauty now. And it's like, gosh, I don't want to get to the end of my life wishing I was just or don't want to get to the end of my life thinking, Gosh, all these No, it's a you got today, you have no idea what tomorrow brings, like, live it to the fool and do everything you can. And it's from my perspective, as Christian is to honor God with everything I can. Yeah, and the craziest thing is that when we do that, there's fulfillment to be found, because he could have made it the opposite. And he didn't. He said, No, like, like, follow me. Follow up I have here and I really do desire, what's good for you. And I found that to be true. And I know that's, there's more to unpack there. But that's Yeah, yeah, that's what I'd say there. No, that's, I mean, that's profound as it is. So I think that was perfect. So I think there's this because you, you address God's timing, right. And I think there's this interesting thing that plays out. And this is me talking and conversations I have with, with other girls. And there's a little bit of jadedness that comes with the whole, like God's perfect timing. Because really what we're like is it's actually a guy's perfect timing. And he's not stepping up and asking me out. Yeah, so in your mind, being a man, yeah. How does this how does this play out for you? And I think this is we're dipping into this conversation of why does dating seem to be such a scarce thing that's going on today? And how do we wait on God when it's literally the action step of a guy that's preventing it from happening? Like how are we getting the wires crossed? Yeah, yeah. The first thing I'd say about that is that I would still say that God is related to that you can still trust him in that. But you're absolutely right, that there's the initiation of a man's going to step up to actually pursue a woman. And again, that can sound depending on what your worldview is, you might not think that's necessary. I think, when men actually step up to be men, culture flourishes. And when men cease to be men when men choose to be boys, quite frankly, we live in a culture that we're currently in and define what that looks like. A boy is someone that pursues himself One that chooses to make the easiest decisions and chooses to see women as objects. That's a boy. I have 13 nieces and nephews, half of them are boys. They're boys. They don't understand this yet, men. This is why the Bible says if I'm as a man like this is one of my favorite things in the Bible is when Christ describes what marriages, he tells the husbands you are to love your wife, as I love the church. Make me like, Oh, great. Well, Chris, really love to know, how did Christ loved the church? Who is the church? Well, the church put them on the cross. The church is the one that spat on him. He sought reconciliation with, with the people that didn't want it. So he says, no matter what I take, I will go after I will pursue I will fix. And he laid his life down. If more husbands actually laid their life down this concept of like, complementarity or like the traditional values of Christianity and Christian marriage, they would get thrown out because people would pursue it because it's beautiful. Well, the problem is, we don't even see it. Because most men, not most men don't want to say from men in general, I believe this like, well, I'm the provider. That means I don't have to do anything in the house. And my wife does. It's just it's this real backwards view of like, she serves me. And yet the Bible says, No, you lay your life down for her. Well, you serve her and when you both serve each other, it's not like I feel like the biggest lie. Everybody always says like, No, you don't relationship is its compromise. I get 50 You get 50? Well, if that's a lie from hell, it's 100. You live for the other person. And the only way that happens is somebody actually gets through this concept that like this life's not about me. Why aren't men doing this right now? Well, I mean, I don't want to be so critical. And that I mean, here, here I am. I'm single no part of it. Part of that being single was like, I genuinely haven't felt I met a woman that I'm like, now. This is it. Now, I'm not ignorant to say that that could also just be like me being overly picky as to what I don't know. Like, I'm working on this. I don't think I've figured this out entirely. But I will say I've done everything I could do this with with as much intentionality as possible. I think it's really hard right now to make decisions. When the world shows you that you have the whole world at your disposal. Yeah, let's go back 2050 years, you went to why people got married. So Young? Well, you lived in a town and you were told like this is the people you'll meet this find your wife here. Yeah. Right. If you made this, the craziest things, some of those marriages are stronger than the ones now when you get to find the perfect person on dating website, everything's like. So I think one of the reasons why men are separated is that is it because there's there's there's this lie that tells you Yeah, but there's more out there. Are you sure you want to settle for this one? Very, very, it's, it's treating it as a commodity. It's sickening. I'm guilty of it myself. I mean, it is a terrible lie. It's in the water that we swim, and drink. It's like, no, no, there's the world that you could have like, look at Instagram. There's so many, like, that's a lie. But we believe it because the world is we're a global village anymore, right? Yeah, we can get anywhere in the world within 24 hours. That's crazy. This is the first time in human history, we're going to do that. So there's that aspect of it. And then also, I think stepping up to be a man is a really selfless thing. And there's not a lot of examples of men being selfless. There's not a lot of men actually sacrificially leading people. And it's hard to emulate something you've never seen. And so I think, again, sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep going to keep going back to Christian church, but like, gosh, if we need more men to show younger men and younger boys, what it looks like to serve their families and their wives and to actually pursue. And I think the Bible lays that out beautifully. Yeah. It's it. I mean, all throughout Scripture. God refers to himself as the bridegroom that Woo's the church to him, right. What does that look like? Well, I think that does step up to Yeah, and there's a variety ways to interpret that. But I just, it's hard. I don't I don't want to be overly critical of guys. It's it's a hard thing to do. Because then there's the fear of rejection. Like there's a lot of things. There's a lot of insecurity going on. It's not just simply like, oh, sorry. And I'd say the last thing is, I think pornography is playing a massive role. Sorry. I mean, okay, so, relationships are difficult. They're messy. And we all know this. What happens when you can get your sexual gratification from something you can do in your bedroom without the person in the messiness of it? Yeah. You want, you want a world that starts changing, we need to stop treat, we need to stop treating pornography as this, like, it's kind of a funny thing that men and women do, but it's not that harmful, it is destructive. It is. It is destroying people's lives. And we treat it as something like it's not that big of a deal. And that's it. That's how you talk about the sex trafficking aspect of it. That's how this just talked about the individual and you don't even have to get the Christian leaves. I mean, look at what Russell Brand is saying about it. Look at people like Terry Crews and a bunch of people like all these people that would not identify as Christian. I don't know about some of them. They may they're not Christian. They're just saying this is harmful because it tells you something about sexually that's not true. And it allows you to distance people from your own heart and it's just like you Yeah, I wish I had a better answer. But I do think speaking to other, you know, Christian girls specifically that are saying no, there are waiting for it. God is ultimately sovereign. And he's not. It's not like he's like, I had this guy, he just has a stepped up, Jim saying, like, there's, there's no asset, there's no Plan B with God, like, if it was plan B, you'd be on Plan Z, let's be real, like, we've all that stuff so much. So you don't have to worry about that. That's where you push into Christ. That's where you push into God more interesting, gosh, that is frustrating. But he knows these things. And he is the one that can orchestrate it all. And that is orchestrating also, I think you can still trust them to this, even though it's quite difficult. And I'm, I pray that men in this country, men in this world will actually step up to be more men in that. That's gonna take time. Yeah. And that's again, that's not me blaming all men. There's very, there's absolutely problems on the other side as well. But I'm just I can only speak from Yeah, that's important. So what I want to talk from the other side on that and ask you a question, because I really don't know. So it seems like you are in the camp of believing men should always be the one to initiate and pursue. Is that correct? From the jump? So from the very well, actually, yeah, okay. Yeah. I'm not saying if a woman pursues it, I don't think that's like, sinful or not, I'm not saying that. I just think it, it allows men to operate in the way they were, they were designed, which is actually to lay their life down. And that what is one of the ways you lay your life down, you pursue and you actually be the sacrifice, like you're sacrificially doing the hard part, not putting it on somebody else. So there's if there's a, you know, an independent, like, goes ever. That's, that's, that's fine. I'm not saying that. You're not allowed to do that. I do think that's not the way it was designed. But like, we're operating in a broken fallen world. Yeah. So. So two side questions for that. Because I talked about the the initial thing you mentioned do, but I think there's this stigma and I've absolutely fallen prey to this. Yeah. And it's, it's actually beat me in the butt. And I'll explain, because it's been like the guy pursues. And then the guy needs to always pursue Yeah, to the point that the guy's like, do you even like me? Sure. And then I'm like, Yes. And it's just like, where do we find that healthy balance? Like, men does the initial pursuit? Okay. And then, I guess what, before we even get to that point, I want to know, have will men pursue if there is enough reasonable doubt that the girl may not like them? Or do they need to have an inkling first? Okay, I can tell she likes me now. I'm gonna proceed. Yeah, that's it. You know, that's gonna be a personality trait. That's gonna be personality type. So I wish I had a solid answer. Now I'm, again, I've been a fairly confident individual in a lot of ways. And so I'm going to I'm going to know, beforehand. Yeah, in the times that I have even just talked to like, the girls I was interested in, like, I knew beforehand what the answer was. I think a lot of guys are and I have these friends like they're generally so they're, they're going to put their heart out on their sleeve and they're going to do it in some they've gotten rejected so much. And so they're a little bit scarred. Like, you know, it's funny, you know, girls talk about just when a guy that's so sweet and kinda, and yet, let's be honest, a lot of them pursue some of the biggest jerks. Like, can you get can you get be that angry with these nice guys when they're trying everything can but every girl's like, No, I want this bad boy. Because Guess Who taught you that one? I don't know society. Like, you want a guy that's gonna treat you right there respects you that pursues you, that's romantically like going after you in a sense of romance. And you choose the guy. That's a complete jerk all the time, but he's attractive and other people want them. It's like, well, there's some mixed views on that one. Like, that's, that's hard. Yeah, it's hard enough. But yeah, you know, I think there's definitely an aspect of like, it's hard to put your yourself out there. It's hard to be like, gosh, I don't want to be ridiculous. Because what is that? That's nobody wants rejection. Like, one of our greatest fears. Yeah. Is for somebody to know who we are and say no. Oh, that sucks. Like, I want to be accepted for him. And so it is hard, I think. One of my favorite quotes of any movie, and it's actually my favorite movie is We Bought a Zoo. Surprising. I know. It's not that I love that. It's such a good film. I know it's insanely deep. But one of the things he says to his son and I don't think this just can be applied to relationships. He says, sometimes in life, all you need is 20 seconds of insane courage do that literally, Bob Gough talks about this exactly. Bob Gough. Yeah, he took it from that film but yeah, it's one of my favorite films or one of my favorite quotes because it's just true that's that's the thing in life I think so many of us regarding our walk with Christ regarding our worth it we're afraid to take risks. We're afraid to jump out and I will just say this every time I've taken risks, even if it didn't turn out the way that I wanted it I was better for CS Lewis talks about and I don't have the quote well, but it's like he talks about like yeah, you know, you want to not get hurt then yeah, box your heart up but then it'll eventually turn into callous and cold and it won't even work so you know when we put ourselves out there there's there's always the opportunity for hurt yeah. Um, thank God there's a lot of healing and yeah, I'm not saying like, it's gonna go perfectly but you don't have to worry about those things if you are. I do think some guys when it's clearly obvious like this, this chicks doesn't like you right? Yeah, but I'm going to do the courageous things like that, to me is actually just being foolish. There's a proper way to figure out when somebody when somebody likes you, but I won't even go further how sorry, yeah, proper way of that. I think one of the best ways to actually begin relationships, and this is going to be countered, I think a lot I think, is actually becoming friends with somebody. Oh, my God, you have to know a person first. It's crazy. I know, actually become friends with that person, and get to know them with zero physicality. And that's darn near impossible today, because one of the first things you do when we date somebody first date is let's make up. I gotta figure out if this if we're, you know, sexually compatible. Yeah, and it is one of the biggest lessons, you if you go to that, when things are different, you can't even hold conversations if you don't enjoy like, this is the person you're gonna spend the rest of your life with, if you're gonna believe that marriage is is ultimately till death, right? Are you do just like being around this person? Is this someone that you can just share conversation with your deepest darkest fears? Is it something that you can be friends with? I think far too many times. We we give up on people meet, like, okay, the way we treat dating, we walk into a room. And what are we doing? We're assessing the room. I mean, the same with dating apps, there's so visually assess the room. And I think in doing that, we actually immediately disqualify that we actually would be these people would be amazing partners in our lives. Because if we grew to know them as friends, and we'd that attraction would grow. And this is not me saying that attraction is an important attraction. Very important. You were designed to then be attractive people and and I think in many ways you shouldn't be attracted that person, but we all know good. And well, like if you know, anybody that's married. The infatuation phase, it leaves like, very, very harsh statement, but I'm willing to say is because I have a friend that was a male model. And he's one of my good friends. And I was talking to him about the modeling industry. And he talks, which is how toxic that place was. And he says, and I won't use the language, he said, But he says, What's crazy about you know, a woman's beauty or someone that you're really attracted to? He's like, you find me the most beautiful woman in the world. And I'll, I'll show you someone that that someone else is tired of having sex with? Well, even the most beautiful personal world, someone has left that person. It's just like, the sexual law of thanks, guys that change as you get older gravity winds are no longer be like if you're going to build a relationship bot. And I don't think we really we do that without it's our default setting. Am I physically charged? Efficient? Yes, there needs to be attraction. The better question is, Are you friends with this person? Yeah. Is there a connection as I do like similar things? Do you have a same vision for life? Not as in you want to do the same things? But like, Are you both gung ho about what is this life about? What are we pursuing? That's everything, I think you have the ability to producing a very, very strong relationship, because I think the the lie we've believed is there's that unicorn out there real quickly, just think of that logic for one second, if there actually is this one person that was created for you. It only takes one person to jack up the rest of the chain, like one person marries the wrong person, then that person is now everybody's, it's the butterfly effect. You You mess up the like, it's a ridiculous statement. I'm not saying that there aren't maybe God's design. Like, you will never be the person God willed for you to be married to the one you're married to. Like, you don't have to like, you're gonna have some inception. Oh, so yeah, it's just it's the one like, stop over over analyzing this thing. It's like, I don't I really don't believe there's this unicorn out there. It's like this is issues. She was designed for it. I was, there's a lot of you like, the question is, are you going to choose to love that person, even when you don't like them. And that's the hardest thing because we're broken. And we're relationships aren't perfect. But the marriages that I've loved the most, gosh, are the ones that are they're so one they're so solid and who they are as a person prior. Yeah. Their love their they love the Lord more than anything else. And then the person that they choose to serve and love them on both side. It's like, gosh, that's what I'm wanting. That's what we want. And you know, that when we were actually traveling, it's a weird thing to say when whatever, during the show, but all the guys are saying is when he says he's like in his 60s. And he's told us, he said, our, the our romantic life has never been better. And I'm like, 60 year old. How's that possible? Yeah. Well, if sex really is more about the physicality of it, it's more than that, but it's about the intimacy that can come. I don't think it's ironic that every, every other month we get a magazine that saying, you know, 20 more tips on how to make the best sex life. Yeah. And it should it we have figured that one out. Like we've been doing it since we've existed. Yeah, you're telling me we have not figured out here if you do this, this and this best sex life, and yet all of us are still not satisfied. Like it's not technique more than that, there's intimacy and that intimate intimacy can only come when you're sharing you like this person and they know without a shadow of doubt that you're going to be there. Because you're afraid that you're not gonna be trusting with somebody that you know is going to leave you. This is why marriage has the potential of producing such beautiful intimacy. Yeah. So to topics we hit on side because I want to get back to that enclose those boxes really quick. The physicality portion? Am I correct in following the train of thought that you think one of the best ways to learn how to not overlook? Yeah, see beyond Yeah, absolutely. physicality is actually becoming friends with someone first? Yeah. Which takes the pressure off of it being like this dating scenario? Are they going to be my husband? Are they going to be my wife? Yes. No. Because you're looking at all of those things upfront. Yeah. Okay. Now, can I just say, real quick, I realize sometimes it doesn't work there. Sometimes you're just so attracted, you're both attracted to each other boom, you shot? That's fine. I was saying specifically for those that you're just not sure you're trying to figure it out. Or you don't even know how to become friends with that person. Yeah. And you'll know, yeah, you will, you will. And there's always gonna be a risk when you have to ask that that girl out. But like, again, I think you can go in there with, with, with a better understanding if you're willing to become friends with that person and know where they're at. Yeah, and I mean, that seems logical from the standpoint of if you can look up, look at someone who you end up dating, but you've been, you've been friends prior for whatever amount of time. And you can still be like, How can I not have fun anytime I see you like, like that shows? Yeah. That's, that's so much more than meets the eye in that scenario. So that's cool. Yeah. Why do you think relationships typically when they break off? Or showed, like, toxic? Yeah, because they started really physical. It's really hard to still be friends with somebody that you slept with. Yeah. It's just a it's like, it's just, it's really difficult because your relationship was built on physicality. Oh, guess what, there's no more physicality cuz you're not dating anymore. So what are you anymore? You're nothing. You're not friends. You literally were people just slowly just like, Well, no wonder that's hard. That's so build friendships and then avoid the physicality until you're you're sure that here's somebody and even physical. I mean, we can talk about that more. What does Yeah, how does that grow? Yeah. But yeah, make sure you're not actually crossing boundaries with somebody that you don't even know what you're like, what does the future look like here? Okay, I'll let you go there real quick. What would you say to someone who's like, well, I don't know if I'm attracted to them. Unless I make out with them. I just, I'm sorry. You may feel that way. Because of the way you've lived this life so far. And I think we can desensitize ourselves by the way we live and we can. Maybe this is your MO That you make out with that person. Which is literally, oh, abbreviate. That's great. Yeah, maybe that is your MO, I will say, I think that's extremely. I think it's extremely cheap. I think you've really cheap into that person is to question whether you can actually find who the if they're attractive, or the if they're good, based off of how you feel when they make out with them. Because here's, here's the thing, you know, we're taught like sexual compatibility, like you have to make sure you're sexually compatible somebody. One, holy crap, what a what a terrible way to view a human. I mean, you you've actually just turned that man, you've actually just turned that woman into, quite frankly, a commodity, it is best price at the BEST OFFERS what it is, what can you offer me in is Is this is this, like, it's a market, you're going out, there's the market of dating. And well, and here's the other Craziest thing. Your sexual compatibility will change. So if you think you're sexually compatible with somebody, and that's just going to save for the rest of her life, you don't understand sexuality, things about you change things that turn you on, she asked somebody who's been married for 50 years, it is you will change and so this concept that you are going to be sexual compatible, somebody for the rest of your life is just ridiculous. Things will change about you will physically change, she will physically change. And so to cheapen someone and say, Are we physical combat, I just think it's ridiculous. So I get it, man. Like, especially when your tracks I mean, what is the first Yeah, you do want to make out with them? And I I'm not saying that's not I'm not this is not a sinful desire. Yeah, you're designed to, but I think there's a better way to figure out who that person is inefficient. It's something because you can be I can't tell you what girls I've been attracted to. That would have been terrible, terrible. Relationships. Me. And what was the first thing I want to do with that girl? Absolutely. make out with her. Yeah. But you refrain from doing that because you're trying to you treat her not simply as something that offers something to you, but as an entity and herself, somebody that's actually creating the image of God that I do not want to violate the the sacredness of. That's so great, cheap and cheap and who they are. I love that you said that. And cheapening? who you are. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It really is. You're showing you're revealing your cards when the first thing you want to do with a girl or a boy is to make up with them. What you're saying is that the physical, the physicalness of their relationship, actually, Trump's the who you are, yep. Yeah. And I know that seems harsh, and it probably seems no, that's ridiculous. I know. I am willing to debate that I'm willing to talk to somebody that feels differently. But I really do think that's actually I'll give their Instagram so they can debate you. And yeah, I get enough hate mail there. So I don't speak on topics that people like, appreciate anyway, so it's constantly getting graded. So yeah, send me an email. So So I opened this a little bit, but let's let's go back there real quick. Yeah, summary. Guys pursue, then the dating relationship happens. What are some easy way? So girls should make sure the guy knows Hey, I do like you just Yes, I think that's fair. Yeah. And what are some easy ways in your mind that a girl could do that? And just show like, this is fun. And I love that you're asking this question. And I'm obviously by no means speaking on expertise or a lot of experience. I'm just saying what would you want? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, because you've probably had a lot more time than other people to think about. Sure. That is true. I will take that as a form of like expertise, like, yes, I've been in the waiting game in the market for a while. Yeah, you know what I think? You know, I, here's the thing, I think it comes down to the way people receive love. And so one of the biggest things for me is quality time, and actually getting quality time inside groups with girls has actually explained says a lot about who that what they think of me. And that's hard, too, because some people are just quality time people, but they're not meaning anything like that. And you're referring to the five love languages, when you say that? Sure. Yeah. Something like Yeah, probably. Yeah, you're right. That's what I am referring to, I guess. Yeah, man, it's a great question. And I don't think I've actually thought about this enough to give like one where I'm like, Yeah, this is the right answer. I do feel like when you spend time with somebody, even as friends, there's man, there's a way that you look at somebody, it means something. Yeah, there's a way that when everybody else is talking, you're just talking to that person. That means something. Yeah. What I think girls could probably be more careful with Come on, is flirting. Because flirting is manipulation, it's getting attention to make you feel a certain way, even though you have no desire to actually act upon what you're saying. Okay, and guys do this as well. I'm not I'm not pushing back as much as saying, What if a girl doesn't realize she's flirting? She's just being kind? Absolutely not. And that is true, because so you know, me as well. Like, I cannot tell you how many. We are both those types of guys finally got into trouble for No, no, exactly. I have there's a, there's a significant amount of girls in my life that are very angry that were at one point very angry at me. I mean, you have a very punchable. But in what it was, it was exactly that. I didn't realize what I was doing was communicating. Because I was just trying to be nice and easily. The harmful thing to that is then I had to start operating in a way that I didn't think was actually genuine. I was just trying to be a little more distant, like, No, I'm not going to be this overly jet, like nice, chivalrous kind of guy. Because girls think when I'm doing that, that that I liked them kind of thing. So that is hard. I will say like there's it happens on both sides. And in your eye. This is where I think community is so important. I was very grateful to have guys in my life to say, hey, when you do this, this is what it's communicating to a girl. And the same thing with girls having girls in your life that are willing to say, No, I know you think you're just being funny. I think you're but what you're actually doing there is you're flirting. And if you don't know you're flirting, I'm letting you know you are right. Because it's it's, it is okay to do that and not know what you're doing. It's not okay to then justify what you're being told. And that's the that's the beautiful thing about community. That's another thing I love. Like actually, Christian community of guys in my life can actually call me out for my own BS and St. Loup. You can say this, you can mean this, but this is what is communicate. And you will have the ability from this point forward of saying, Oh, I didn't know. You do know. Yeah. And so I've had to, I've had to be very careful. It's like, okay, so what, what do I do when I communicate these things? So, yeah, but I'm sorry. So I wish I had a better answer. I don't have enough. Like, no, but I think I think you gave an action step with that. Okay. It doesn't have to be a clear cut. Yeah, it's just yeah, it's just, you have to learn to navigate it. Yeah, that's it, you have to be intentional about navigating it. Yeah. And making sure that you are taking action and you can do it with a lot of fun. Because you know, it's not your identity. That's that's the key to all this. And I know we started there with contentment, but the reason why I think you can do this with the aspect of like, joy and just like, all this be nice and not like this will shatter if it doesn't work. The only reason why this will shatter us if you find your identity and your ability to find a spouse. Start working on that before you start entertaining relationship. And I know that's hard, and I don't know how long it'll take. But in a real note, like, Would you would you actually entertain this idea of like, okay, am I just alright with who I am? And I thought that sounds so cheap and like, like almost like, new? Like New Age religion. I don't mean like, find yourself I'm not saying that. Yeah. What are you genuinely okay with who you are? Are you contending? And what God has already given you? Are you coveting other things? Are you coveting other relationships? Because that's actually what it is. And it's Gosh, it's so challenging. And it's okay to struggle with it. The thing is, you It's an everyday battle. And I, the only thing I've noticed in my own life is like with the everyday battles with something like pornography with something like this. It's when you consistently do that everyday battle you without it, without even realizing it, you realize this battles are no longer and they just disappear, unpack. Yeah, I would say Yeah, cuz there's a point in my life for sure that I really desire relationship and it became an identity thing for me. And then I started to own that it's something I wrote down. It's something I, you talked about God with every day. Same thing with pornography. Oh my gosh, man, I wish the moment I said, Holy crap, like this is wrong. I want to say I wish it was gone. Yeah. And it wasn't. And I was like, gosh, God, I want this out. Can you please help me. And I remember falling and getting back up and falling and getting back up and falling, and then started, I started falling less and less, and then it'd be months without fall. That's what I mean. It's like, the more you're willing to bail these things every single day and not, I think we just weren't, we're not. We're a culture of immediate satisfaction, immediate gratification. And so if we're doing no wonder why we're frustrated with how long something's taking, but the beautiful thing about the process that he thinks is it builds a form of endurance, and it builds a sense of maturity, and character, because that's actually when we want a character that can sustain where God is taking us. Well, one of those things is when you are willing to every single day, face that thing and just fight it as much as you can. You, you address it, it's you're you're you're being careful as to what you watch. Because you know, when I watch these types of films, this I feel when you do this types of things. I think what I've seen in my own life is like, Oh, wow, like, I don't actually, I don't think about that often anymore. I'm not I'm not struggling with that. Because, like I said, I think I have an odd disposition right now when it comes to singleness. Like I feel like most guys my age, especially Christian guys that are just biting at the bit. They just want to be married. I think a lot of girls as well. Yeah, I don't want to take complete credit for that and saying, I'm just really self disciplined. And I, I think the Lord has given me a disposition because of what I'm doing. And when he chooses to change it, that's great. But like that, I will say that that just that disposition of being content was not just there at all times. It was something that I slowly grew into as I was doing my best to make wise decisions, and to take captive every thought and to be very, very careful as to things I'd entertain myself to. That's so good. And that's so good that I actually am going to end the podcast episode right here. We're gonna do a part two. Oh, I hope you found that conversation to be as rich as I did. And before I forget, I wanted to just shout out Lou one for being awesome. But two, if you want to follow along on all of his adventures, his speaking engagements and his conversations, then be sure to give him a follow on Instagram. His handle is at Lulu dot Phil dot life. So lru.ph I L dot L I F E. So some of my big takeaways for this episode? Are we being alert to make sure we aren't cheapening who people actually are behind their physical appearance. Number two, the scariest thing in life is not about having an answer to the question What is the meaning of life, but rather the scariest thing in life is pursuing the thing that you think is the meaning of life and finding it empty. Number three, it's okay to say I want that maybe referring to marriage, but also recognize at the same time that God is good. And therefore God is not withholding any good gifts from me. Number four, it's extremely hard to emulate something you may not have seen an example of before, but it's not impossible. In fact, Blue has made it so abundantly clear that he refers to and looks to Scripture as his guide map, his roadmap his his plan for best practices as to how to live a life filled with faith. And I think the same example of precedent can be set for all of us. So don't get deterred just because maybe you haven't seen an example of what is laid out in the Bible or what you are hoping for in your future in in marriage and in your time in singleness as well. Number five, we need to treat others not as someone who can offer or give something to you, but rather as an entity in themselves in someone created in the image of God, meaning that we don't want to violate the sacredness of that. Number six on the topic of flirting, Lou dropped the mic with this one line because it wasn't just referring to this, but this is a life principle right here and here's what he said. It's okay to do that and not realize what you're doing. But it's not okay to try and justify it once it's been brought to your attention. Ah, I mean, he hit the nail on the head with that one. And especially for conversations like these, I of course want to know what some of your takeaways were. So be sure to comment down below and if you enjoyed this conversation, I'm going to bet you're also going to love the conversation I had with my friend Mackenzie on the topic of church hearts. So if you are interested in that, make sure you click this Link right here guys thank you so much as usual and I'll see you in the next video