Guys, it is the final day of 2020. And we have made it if you're listening to it on release day, hey, so happy to have you here. And you know, today's conversation is one that I have been so looking forward to since before this podcast even began, because it's a conversation piece that I think is always at the forefront of a lot of people's mind. Because today, I'm going to be talking with my brother Slater on the concept and the topic of how to engage in conversations about your faith with other people who don't believe the same thing you do because we I often get questions about this. And usually, I think we can come up with 100 adjectives to describe how this feels scary being one of them intimidating, just there's a myriad of feelings that you can have when you're in a conversation, and someone asks you about your faith, or you want to share about your faith. So to lay the framework for this conversation, I want you to know that both me and my brother are professed Christians. So our entire conversation is revolving around how we as Christians are engaging in conversations with other people. But regardless of if you believe in Christianity, or not, here's what I want you to know you're going to walk away with in this episode. And the first one is you are going to hear my brother's defense as to why he believes in Christianity and to his evidence as to why God exists. So that's going to be insane. And the second thing, you are going to walk away with actual tangible ways which you can employ today, in having conversations with other people about your faith. Regardless of what you consider your faith to be, you can have an actual good dialogue with someone else, regardless of if you guys believe the same thing or not. And he unpacks it all in this episode. So I don't think I need to say much more. I give the intro live when I'm with him. So let's jump right into it. Here's my conversation with my brother Slater, on how to engage in conversations with your faith. When someone else doesn't believe the same thing, guys, welcome to another episode of The accidentally intentional podcast. This has been one of the conversations I've been most excited about this year, because I get to speak to my beloved younger brother of mine, Slater. And Slater is someone that I'm super proud of. I look up to a ton because he doesn't have one, but two masters in theology, one of them being from the pretty chilled school called Oxford University in England. So Slater has a ton of education and experience and Slater, I want you to just start by telling people what your biggest passion is and what you really went to school for to do. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. Hello, viewers and listeners. Yeah, I think my passion kind of have a twofold passion for evangelism and apologetics. In that order, evangelism, being sharing with others, the good news of Jesus Christ, obviously, if Christianity is true, and that's the best news conceivable, and so sharing that with others just feels like a great joy and responsibility of mine. Second one is apologetics. It's a fancy word that sounds like we're apologizing. What it really is, is presenting a rational defense for the intellectual credibility of the Christian faith. And so reality is a lot of people have legitimate intellectual questions and objections to belief in God. And one of my heartfelt desires is to help clear the way and help people understand that actually, to be a Christian, is a very intellectually credible thing to do. So apologetics enables you to have very difficult conversations with people who don't agree with you. And there might be someone who's hearing this saying that sounds absolutely terrifying. Yeah. And so our conversation is going to be geared around this idea today of giving people confidence to have conversations with others that don't agree with them. How did you get the confidence to start having these type of conversations because to give some context, Slater very frequently talks to atheist or people of other religions and is able to have extremely valuable conversations with people and do it without fear, intimidation, or anything like that. You are so confident in what you believe that you're undeterred by anyone else's, quote, unquote, argument. So speak to that little bit. Yeah, I think two big things. I mean, one, I think just step back. If Christianity is true, Christianity makes exclusive truth claims of Christianity is true. That means things that say Christianity is not true or wrong. So if Christianity is true, that makes me may have the upper hand and a conversation because whatever someone else believes, is by necessity false because if they think Christianity is false, and Christianity is true, then they are wrong. And so it does help in a conversation if you are sure that you have truth on your side. I think number two, if Christianity is true, then really the only barrier for me is Making sure I know that Christianity is true and knowing the facts to back it up. And so that's kind of started my passion of just researching. When I became a Christian, I had a atheists classmate of mine who just came at me hot, quoting Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, all these guys I'd never heard of, but had very persuasive arguments for why it was wrong. And I was left in this place of I know, I've had a real encounter with God. But I can't just say that and that's like, kind of a cop out answer. So I just thought, Okay, I know this is true. But I need to find out why. And that's kind of led me on this 10 year journey now of researching and trying to understand why is this a credible thing to believe? And the more I've researched, the more convinced I've been actually far from engaging with a atheists making me an atheist, it's actually made me more sure of the certainty of Christianity. See, now that's interesting, because I think that the fear in there is I don't have a strong enough argument. What if they convinced me that I'm wrong? Yeah. So that's very interesting that it made you even stronger as a result. And the fact that you said, it took you 10 years to get there, because let's say there's people who are younger, quote, unquote, younger Christians, or haven't read the bible cover to cover Yeah. And it's extremely intimidating. But you're saying this is a lifelong journey? And it's one that you've been committed to? Yeah, but I think I mean, in terms of beginning steps, I think there's this misnomer that we have that as Christians, we're the only ones who need to defend what we believe. So everyone else is off the hook. But we have to defend the fact that we believe something when in reality, every worldview needs defended in terms of its credibility. So if you're an atheist, you are just as much responsible for defending the credibility of that worldview, as I am defending the credit credibility of my worldview. So in terms of conversations, you don't need to know anything about Christianity task, thought provoking questions about atheism. And so if you're a new Christian, and or you're just really interested in Christianity, the best thing I could say is, ask questions, and genuinely learn what someone believes. Because one, it's useful to understand where they're coming from and to like, like I said earlier, if Christianity is true, then in asking questions, you might be able to expose the shortcomings and the lack of thought they've put into some areas where there are big question marks in terms of their worldview. So unpack that a little bit more, that it's important. And there's freedom and asking questions, because I think people get a little a little scared. Like, why can't ask questions, I should know this. And that's not not the case at all. In fact, who is it that says, the longer I've been a Christian? The the less I seem to know about God, the more questions I have, oh, man, I don't know who said that. I think a lot of people have said, yeah, yeah, I mean, I can I can certainly attest, the deeper you go, the more you realize how much you don't know. Yeah. But that is a humbling exercise. Because if God exists, it probably shouldn't be surprising that he's pretty complex being to understand, and there's gonna be some big questions we have to unpack. Yeah. So let's, let's get into some practical steps. Okay. So let's say that, because you're mentioning, everyone needs to be able to defend why they believe what they believe, which I think, is, is lost on culture, quite frankly, right now. I mean, I honestly have never been asked by an atheist. Why do you believe in God? So I've never had to defend it? Yeah. And, you know, having conversations with you is made me realize I need to start coming up with these questions so that I'm prepared, like it says in the Bible, always be prepared to give an answer for this faith that you have. So I want to know, let's say it's your first time encountering a situation. And someone asks a question that is, is not gentle. It's very pointed. It's very targeted. And they're trying to dismantle your belief system. Yeah. So I think I mean, really, practically, that kind of a classic one. How could you believe in a God who allows raped something like that? Who allows this evil who allows? And you can I think one you can respond empathetically and say, you know, that's a really difficult question. And I and I think I would respond with a counter question and just say, hey, you know, I know this is pretty hardcore. But if God doesn't exist, why exactly as whatever that thing is bad? Because the reality is, oftentimes in questions like that, the atheist might be assuming some truths from Christianity, namely, an objective moral framework that something is true for all times, and all seasons, therefore, like, certain things are wrong, like murder. But actually, if God doesn't exist, it's really hard to defend that sort of framework. Like why would these arbitrary rules just happen to exist because of a random explosion that happened 14 billion years ago. So it's hard to understand how that could be the case. Yeah. So I think one question, but that's another question like, well, you know, before I answer that, let me ask you a question. Why exactly is that bad, and it's so jarring, but it actually points out something for them. If you know it may be I'm assuming something that actually doesn't make sense within my own worldview. So I've I've asked thought to people and then they kind of realize, you know, I, I think evil, for example is a real problem, but I have no idea how to defend that evil actually even exists, it seems like it does. And what makes the most sense of that Christianity. So then you like already, like, I kind of already have an upper hand because you're already assuming something about Christianity that you actually need to defend in your own worldview. So all I've done is ask the question, but it's totally disarmed them in terms of the abrasiveness of the question for me. And we're actually able to have a really human conversation because we both think whatever, if it's evil, we both think that's a thing. But I have a justification for it. And he doesn't. Yeah. So Yeah. And just to just point out, when you said upper hand, you're not treating it as a debate or an argument, but rather, an upper hand to allow you to ask more questions to learn more about them. Yeah, well, it's, and I think, in terms of upper hand, it's just a lot of people can be quite aggressive. And so if I'm able to disarm them, and kind of gain more control of the conversation, I can guide a conversation to let's have actually a reasonable discussion and not just yell at each other this whole time, because that's gonna be more productive for both of us. Because I mean, I want to learn about someone's worldview, too. I mean, that's why I love talking and studying atheists is because I'm actually learning more about why I believe what I believe and how I can better communicate that to the people who disagree with me. That's so good. So basically, you would say step one is if someone you feel attacked by someone, yeah, the first step is not to defend, but rather ask a question. Yeah, I think so. Emphasize and ask questions. I mean, I think, for whatever reason, it seems like for the past 20 years, it seemed like the case for me when I became a Christian of like, if someone asked me a question, like, if I don't answer it, suddenly Christianity is not true. Like, you know, this huge weight of responsibility, upholding 2000 years of church history and my answer, yeah, well, it's like, you know what reality is, even if I give a crappy answer, Christianity still true. Like, I might have failed by task for that moment. But this weight of responsibility doesn't need to be there. So I think if you can take that away, and just breathe, take a deep breath and just have a conversation with a human being it goes a lot better instead of when they come in hot coming in hot back, that just going to escalate for sure. Whereas if you can stay calm, and you can deflate, you can have a really human conversation that can often be super beneficial. Yeah. Give us another example of how you can quickly disarm certain things such as that one about truth. I love that one. Oh, I mean, yeah, I mean, classic things of like, hey, well, you know, I don't, I don't believe in truth that you know, because why? Well, why not? There is no truth. Okay, and it's like, oh, that's, that sounds really intelligent feels very, like, open. It's like, how do you how do you? Yeah, I just, you know, will ask, well, is that true that there is no truth? And then, you know, it's like this epiphany. It's like, Have you even thought about what you're saying? Like, in the least or, you know, another classic one that this happened to me. This girl, I was in the Netherlands on a mission and this girl said, well, we can't know anything about God said we can know nothing really nothing about God said we cannot know anything about God. And I just said well, do we know that about God? You know, I mean, it's like we say these really empty Maxim's that sound really sexy and intelligent, open minded, but it's just contradicting itself. And then she's like, Oh, we do like, so we can know something God, about God, but namely, that we don't know anything about God. She's like, Well, yeah, so we do know something about God. And then it's like, okay, so your number one reason for not being a Christian? That took five seconds to explain why you haven't thought about that at all. So let's actually have a conversation now. And then she she was more open, because she's like, Yeah, actually, I can see that was not the most thoughtful response I've ever had. Yeah, it's very interesting, because you, you are paying closer attention than most people, whenever someone is asking you that question. And I think, I mean, I'm still listening to this. And I was like, I would not have thought of that answer. But you you didn't start being super duper at this. You don't I'm saying like it took it took tons of practice. And I think, let's, let's speak to that area, and go deeper into that, because you said, listen, whenever I mess up, like God is still God is still real God is still there. What advice would you have for people that have already had a bad encounter? And felt like their faith was attacked, and they could not do anything to defend it whatsoever? Yeah, but I think you know, at the end of the day, I mean, I just always point people back to the resurrection. Paul says in First Corinthians, you know, If Christ has not been raised, you know, our faith is useless. Like this whole thing is rubbish. So everything comes back to that. And for me, I think the resurrection of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago is one of the best evidences for Christianity that most one of the well attested historical events in terms of what best makes sense of all the data given. So for me, I'm like, You know what, even if you don't believe it, this thing happened, man. So you know, get on board eventually, but that happened. So I guess what I want to say is when you're talking to someone, one if God exists, God's in charge and so you don't have to freak out of Man, because of me, this person is now going to go to hell, you know, because I didn't, I didn't do my job. It's God's bigger than that, I think. And so I think that can be a comfort if you know, this person came across my path. How can I love them? How can I show God's grace and love to them? How can I point them to God? And if I've, if I've messed that up, it's okay. Try to get next time. Don't get defensive, be thoughtful. Trust that God does exist and just have a human conversation. Don't Don't get caught up in terms of this war of ideas. Yeah, have a human conversation point people to Jesus and let him do the work. And yeah, of course, I mean, it helps. I mean, I've been studying this for 10 years, it helps if you know some things that helps you have a good conversation. And when Peter and First Peter 315, talks about always being prepared to give a defense for the reason that the hope that you have, he's kind of assuming people are going to be asking about what you believe because of how you live. But to not be prepared as actually to live in disobedience. I mean, you see this theme throughout the New Testament of there is a preparation for Christians to prepare to expand the kingdom of God. I mean, that is Jesus's Great Commission go and make disciples. Well, how are we going to do that if we're completely unprepared? Yeah. So I think a practical step for people who are new is to actually dive in, get to know the God that you are in a relationship with, if you love him, get to know him, you'll love him more as a result. And you're saying, just read the Bible, read the Bible study? I mean, have conversations get plugged in at your church? And there's so many different ways, but yeah, I mean, for me, it's kind of crazy. When people say, you know, I'm a Christian for, you know, past 510 years, have you read the Bible? No. So like, I mean, you're telling me you believe that God has revealed Himself through these written words by through 66 different books, 40, something offers authors over 2000 years of history. That's his revelation so that we can know Him better. And we haven't even made the effort. It's like, I mean, it's what what kind of relationship would you have with someone? If you literally did not really communicate with them at all? For 10 years? And then thought, yeah, you know, the relationships going? Well? I mean, it'd be ludicrous. Yeah. You know, you talk to those and you get to know those who you relationship with how much more so the God who loves you and gave himself for you on a cross? That's so good. So let's say that's up to that's up to that someone's at that point. Yeah. And it seems like one of the first steps would be for them themselves, to start asking hard questions, what do I want to learn about God? Now, that being said, they asked the question, and then they look at this huge Bible, and they're like, Okay, where do I open it? Where do I find the answer to this? How would you help them be directed towards finding the truths in the Bible? Yeah, I mean, I think fundamentally, if you've never really read the Bible, just start off with the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I mean, gospel literally means good news. And so those are kind of the snapshots, or the kind of biographies of Jesus presented by those closest to him. And so for me, since Jesus is literally the center of the faith, I mean, Jesus Christ Christianity, hopefully you caught that by now. It's good to get to know Jesus. And he is easily the most remarkable individual in history, whether you're a Christian or not, people remain fascinated with him. So I'd say start in the Gospels and just read and get to know Jesus get to know not only what he taught, but how he lived, because it was completely radical. You You mentioned a couple minutes ago, and I'm gonna give you three minutes to just let loose. You said there's enough evidence for for Jesus. Yeah. Why don't you share some of the evidence that you've that you found? Yeah, so for Jesus, so this is like, the really interesting thing is like people think this is like, just like a Christian thing to say, but like, there are just minimal facts everyone agrees with about Jesus, like ever, no matter like what you believe, like any historian, New Testament scholar, classicist, at any accredited school in the world would believe these things. And the reason I can say this is actually I have a colleague who teaches in Australia who's who has literally gone on record, and said, If you can find one professor in New Testament classics or history, who says that Jesus didn't exist, I'll read a page out of my Bible. He said that eight years ago, so far, no one has come forward because guess what, they don't exist. Interesting. But for me, so here are the minimal facts we know about Jesus. Well, one he existed as I said, Two he was crucified three, there was definitively an empty grave for definitively people saw it thought they saw him so already really interesting facts. Five we know he was crucified for heresy. So obviously made claims to be divine. He had 12 followers. He purportedly worked miracles like these are things all historians can agree on. So already, we're seven. Yeah, got a pretty unique picture that looks remarkably similar to the New Testament. So people hear that like, oh, that's just bias. No, that's like whatever he just normal historian agrees on. And then so that's like, deeply uncomfortable because like, oh, this like weirdly sounds like the New Testament is true and that Christianity is true. It's like, well, yes, because it is. But then so you dig into that. And then you say, Okay, well, clearly he died. The question is what happened after that? What best accounts for the data? And there's, I mean, you look at the story there, there's tons of remarkable evidence that suggests that he did, in fact, rise from the dead. I'll just give two examples. The Gospel writers all unanimously attest that the first persons who saw Jesus after his resurrection were women. Now, in the culture at the time, ancient Roman culture, in the first century, women were not even considered credible enough to serve in, in law to serve as a witness in law because they weren't seen as so uncredible. So step back, if you thought, I'm going to make up this crazy idea that this dude who rose from the dead, why the heck would you have the two people who are the people who are not seen as credible in society be your fundamental eyewitnesses? I mean, that's like me literally claiming today. Guess what, you know, my long lost great grandpa rose from the dead and two, five year olds witnessed it. Those are my big witnesses, people, you get laughed out. So like, why would you make that up? Unless you're just genuinely trying to record history as it was? Yeah. Secondly, 11, out of 12 of Jesus's closest followers were all martyred for their faith. And of course, a lot of faiths can say, Well, okay, we have martyrs. So that doesn't prove Christianity is true. But here's what's unique about the Christian martyr record. Well, what's martyrdom mean? First off, dying for your faith, sorry, dying for your faith. So a lot of people will say, Well, we have martyrs. That doesn't mean Christianity is true. But here's the really interesting thing. Those 11 men who died, all would have known for sure if it was a lie. Like, if they made this up, all of those guys would have known this is a sham. So I mean, let's just step back and think, who would be crazy enough to openly get tortured and die for something they do is a lie. I mean, even if we say maybe one, what are the chances 11 guys do that. So we have historical record of 11 guys who are going to their deaths, and Jesus rose from the dead, and they were the ones who would have known for sure whether he actually did rise from the dead. I mean, it is pushing conspiracy theory beyond I mean, all like range of credibility to suggest that 11 guys had this grand plan to just deceive the rest of the world. And they all went to their debts, and were tortured, just to perpetuate a lie. So the best explanation is, well, whether we like it or not, somehow this man rose from the dead, which guess what if God exists, that's completely possible. So there you go. And that's right past Wow, minutes. I mean, we sure learned a lot and whatever time that was, that was incredible. Okay, so I'm gonna stop here and tell you that we actually have a live audience watching our conversation. almost our entire family is sitting. Oh, man, they are. Yes, the Thanksgiving group. So my mom actually just asked that question. I'm, since I'm closer to the mic. I'm going to pose the question again. Because Slater, you said start in the Gospels. I can still see some people just getting a little overwhelmed like what I do, do I just read it and walk away? Like, how do I quote unquote, engage with scripture? Because you mentioned you've been studying this for 10 years, which automatically places the divide between you and everyone else listening to this? So what are what are practical steps that we can do? What's like a first a springboard? Yeah, I guess two things. One, I kind of hear this common trope, if you will, of like, Oh, it's so scary. To talk to people. Yes. And my common response is, well, when's the last time you did it? Like, why I haven't, because it's so scary. Well, like, how do you know it's scary if you've never done it? And so I guess for me, I just like, I want to encourage people, I've been doing this for a while, like, just talk to people. They're normal, like, talk about your faith. It's not that scary. People aren't like that terrifying to talk to a lot of people are open minded about it. Yeah. So I just think one, you're not going to improve at it if you never do it. So actually just have conversations with people. Number two, like we live in such a fast paced culture that we've kind of lost the habit of just like being able to read and digest something. So like, easy first thing, designate 10 minutes, put your phone on airplane, have no distractions and read a chapter of the gospels. Matthew, one mark, one, John one, Luke one, and just 10 minutes read that chapter won't take long. Take a minute and a half to read. And just think about it just thick. That simple. Just take five to 10 minutes to do that, to really just engage with and try to understand what's going on. And yeah, I mean, down the road, maybe we can get a commentary, which is essentially just smart Christians with degrees and understanding the Bible, have written books on how to understand you can do that at some point, but just take five to 10 minutes to take your distractions away and just engage directly with God's word and something I do every time is, before I read the word sense. It's God's revelation to us how he has revealed himself. I just pray for the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to understand the truth of it since he is the one who reveals God to us. Great. So step one, open the Bible. Step two, pray you start reading the Bible. What Questions. Are you asking as you're reading that chapter in the Bible? Oh, man. Oh, I mean, I think it depends on what exactly I'm reading. But I think it's very helpful. If it's your first time to just ask questions you have. So like, if there's something you don't understand, ask the question, write it down and make note of your questions. Because that will guide your thinking in terms of how am I going to wrestle with the questions here? Or if something really is interesting, write it down. But I think, especially if it's your first time, yeah, the best thing is, like, not me prescribing questions, but you just writing whatever questions you have down to help you think through the passage. Yeah. That's great. That's super practical. And I love this idea of, of asking questions, because because that is a lost art, as we just just said, but we don't even need to ask other people questions, we can start with asking ourselves questions. And I think, after having conversations with you, that's been very pivotal for me, because it gives you the confidence to say, hey, wait, I, I need to think about this. So why don't I engage in conversations with my, with my friends about this, too, and figure out what, what our framework actually is. And it's pretty, it's pretty eye opening? How, how rarely, I've seen that I actually have a definitive answer, and reason and rationale for why I believe what we believe. Why believe what I believe, sorry, do you have a book that you would recommend for someone that really wants to like, dig into this and learn this art of asking questions? Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's probably the book that I recommend to you as tactics by Greg cocoa. I think it's how to engage skeptics with your faith and my love to give a recommendation. Yeah, I'll put the link down below, put the link down below. But yeah, it's just a it's a great, it's a great book. And it's like just a great instructive, beginning, like introduction to how we have these conversations. And Greg kokles, big, big thing is just putting a pebble in someone's shoe and unpack that it's a great image. Because if you've had a pebble in your shoe, it sucks. It's a nuisance, you just can't quite get the feeling out until you remove the pebble from your shoe. So Greg's thesis says, Hey, let's put pebbles in people's shoe in our conversation. So something I do so here's an here's a real life example of pebble in the shoe. We're in England, I lived in England for two years, as you know. And I'm in a taxi, what do you study? Oh, you know, I just really I study theology. Like I've just, I research arguments for and against the existence of Gods very fascinating. And then I changed the subject, pebble in the shoe. And then so it's like, it's interesting, you're fishing? Does he want to have this conversation or not? Notice I'm not forcing him to have the conversation. But I've kind of brought up an intriguing thing to just throw out there if he wants. And then sure enough, five minutes later, so tell me about you more about your research. What have you found, boom, we're having the conversation that easy. And he brought it up, not even me. I just threw it out there as an introduction. It wasn't alive. That's actually what I was doing. Yeah. And then he's interested, we have this great conversation wrestling with the problem of evil. But it's as simple as that. If you just throw something out, oh, boom. I went to church. Yeah. What's church this message, really amazing message about obedience to God. Throw it out there, move on. See if they pick that up. You just put the pebble in the shoe. And then guess what you're talking about a sermon which hopefully you have paid attention to, that you haven't really had to do any extra homework for, and you're sharing the gospel through the sermon you just heard? Yeah, that easy. I love it. And so it's basically asking someone a question, that they have to think about the rest of the day, and really figure out Wait, why am I stuck on this? Or even give them a thought? Yes, it's a new thought. I think either one, but something that is going to just continue. It's like that taxi driver, he doesn't have that conversation. I wonder what his research showed now that he's at Oxford, he's studying he's clearly serious about it. Yeah. Does he believe in God or not? Now that he's done this research? Yeah. There you go. That's great. And you know, what I really liked about that book was how it really does teach you how to, to ask questions. Now, I consider myself a professional question. Asker. We already got a podcast? Well, I guess so. I'm not paid. So I'm just an amateur. But one day, I'll be professional sponsors. So anytime in Jesus name. But, you know, one of the things he mentioned is he's found himself in situations before when he was new to engaging in these conversations, where someone stumped him. And guess what he said? He said, Wow, I never thought about that. Can I get back to boom, like, it's not some like, oh, yeah, well, and I think that's the thing is, I mean, obviously, no one likes being wrong. Like, I think that's like never a comfortable thing, right? But the heart of the Gospel is that hey, actually, we do a lot of wrong, and God actually loves us anyways, and he forgives us anyways. But I think if we can understand the gospel, that should beget a humility within us of like, Hey, I'm not going to be perfect all the time. And so yeah, you know what, what I leave it I've come across plenty of good arguments for the non existence of God where I'm like, that's really compelling. And it's not just like, I'm gonna make up some answer like, No, I actually really need to understand this like, what's going While I'm here, and sooner or later I have come out to an answer. But it wasn't immediate. And I don't think we're doing others a favor. We're not doing the Lord any favors, if like when we come to a position where we're challenged or wrong, we just react defensively. Part of it is we were as much explaining people to Christ as modeling Christ to them. And it's you can't have one without the other. I mean, if you're just a jerk, for lack of better words, but you have all the answers, I don't think he really painted a compelling picture of Christianity. But the more encouraging side, if you're super loving to people, and people come in contact with you, and are like, wow, that person is amazing. Want to spend time with them? They're remembering how you treated them more than the questions you asked. So like, everyone can love people, right? Like that's, that's step one. You don't have to do any research to show love and compassion for others. And that's a really compelling picture of Christianity. You've given them just by the way you've treated them. And that is, I mean, that's in first Peter 315, when he talks about being prepared to give a reason for the hope that you have the context, the context is that people are actually asking you, so there's something about the way you live your life? Should we get questions from the outside and open up an opportunity to share the gospel? Let's say that there's someone who, because you can speak to this, someone who's competitive by nature, and competition is one of their strengths, like you. How do you stand levelheaded in moments like this? To not see this as I have to win? Yeah, yeah. Great question. I think at the end of the day, my interest in apologetics is not to intellectually bully people. That's just not my goal. My interest in apologetics is so that in the practice of apologetics, I could remove a legitimate barrier to someone accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior. And so the end for me of apologetics is not arguments, but conversion. And so even if it doesn't end with you, sure, yeah, I mean, but like, that's, that's the end, I'm working too. So like for me, if I win an argument, but the person goes away bitter towards me, because I've just bullied them. That's a loss. Yeah. Even if the argument was one. So I'm much more concerned about like, the end being something where either the person is more interested in Christianity, or they've at least have a very positive experience with a Christian, those are wins for me versus just winning a conversation. Now, with that said, I've come in contact with a lot of people who like legitimately are just wrestling with the question. And I've been able to, like challenge them, give a compelling answer, maybe give them a challenging question in return. And that's been a productive conversation for both parties. And I've been asked really good questions that have helped me research, but it's never simply about like winning an argument. It's about the person. Obviously, the great late, great, Ravi Zacharias, you know, said behind every question as a questioner, and I think he's touching on something there. Like, we're, we're dealing with people, fundamentally, and then ideas, and so we can have a war of ideas, but let's not have a war of people in the process. Yes. So let's say that someone tries to do this, not to your face got behind a computer screen? Does the dynamic change for you? Do you? Do you always try and get them in person? Or? Or have you experienced situations like this where someone's like, act, actually not trying to attack you asking a legitimate question? And how do you engage in that conversation through social media? Social media is really difficult. It's often the case that I feel like things I've said have been misconstrued, just based off the medium of sure, like what we're going through, and so and part of that is likely my fault. Part of that is also partly the fault of the medium. So whenever possible, meet with persons in person just because it reduces the amount of question marks of tone of is that a rhetorical question? Just things you like, is that sass? I can't tell it sounds Sass sassy. But maybe I've just really tried to.my I's Cross my T's. And that sounds like I'm just being Stern. Yeah. So there's just a lot of room for misinterpretation online, which is why I always prefer when possible to just say, hey, really interesting. This question, how would a treat a cough and we talked about it in a post COVID. World? That's, that's great. Because I think the temptation hearing all this would be like, I certainly can't do this face to face. Yeah. So let me try behind the screen first. But that's actually you're at a disadvantage. If you try behind the screen first. Because there's violent which there's tone like all the Zoom calls, nothing. Oh, yeah, exactly. Mine is well beat humans with one another and actually share the ideas. And I think what something that you're very good at as well, is like you just spoke to Robbie's quote, you actually want to hear what someone is saying. So your posture is always open minded. Not from the standpoint I've changed my mind but open minded to hear people that don't agree with you, which I think is something we all can, can learn to do better, especially this year. I do want to clarify though, in terms of the open mindedness if Christian if someone can give me really compelling art argument for not being a Christian, I'll stop being a Christian tomorrow. But I think the evidence is so much there that like, even the thought of it is kind of preposterous to me. But there's this misnomer of like Christians just have blind faith like, No, I'm a I'm a Christian because I follow the evidence and the evidence points there. So part of the engagement is like, yeah, give me your best argument. Let's hear it like I'm, I'm happy to I mean, that's what I'm studying. I study under, you know, atheists who are, you know, some of the world's leading us, I want to hear the best you have to say, because up to this point, I haven't been compelled. And the more the more I dig, the more I'm convinced that yeah, no, this is the, this is the right side. So now, that's a great clarification. Why don't you share if you're willing to share that story about that, quote, unquote, deal you made with someone on one of your missions? Oh, yeah. Because I think, yeah, I want you guys to hear the story so that you're really inspired that you don't need to be afraid of what you believe in. He'll explain why. Great. Yeah. I had a conversation with a Muslim gentleman. We're in the Netherlands, we were talking. And one of his core beliefs that Muslims do believe is that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross. I believe Simon died on the cross. So the guy who carried the cross all last spare Jesus, Simon died on the cross instead, and Jesus walked free. And obviously, I disagree with that, because that's the case and Christianity is blatantly false. Now, if I could pause you right there. Did he tell you that? Are you knew that coming into this conversation because of your education? I didn't know that coming to the conference. Okay. So which I don't think he realized, but he brought it up himself. Because, you know, obviously, I'm talking about Jesus. And he's saying, Well, you know, Jesus didn't actually die, which that's a problem for Christianity, because if Jesus didn't die, he also didn't rise. And the Christian faith is based off the resurrection. So we had this conversation, I'm like, okay, that's fine. Like, I know, you believe that. Like, all of the secular Academy is on my side here. Like, this isn't even me saying Jesus died on the cross. Like, it's just, it's one of the it's one of the facts we know about Jesus, for sure. It's not just like, oh, it's biased, because it's in the New Testament. It's like, no, no. Like, this is just historical fact. Like, with resurrection debate. Jesus died on the cross, not a debate. And so wherever this conversation, he's like, You're wrong. And I'm like, literally, like, you're like, there's just, this isn't even me. Are you as a Christian? This is just like, a scholarly, you're wrong? Well, you didn't say you're wrong. What? You asked him a question, I'm sure. Oh, yeah. Well, we went back and forth. But there was a point of like, Listen, man, like, I don't know how else to say this was like, literally every academic in the world disagrees with you. Like, this is not a very credible thing. But I essentially said, here's the thing, I'll make a deal with you. If you can prove to me, because again, consider the evidence that I have on my side of Christianity is true. The evidence is there. Yeah. If you can prove to me Jesus didn't die on a cross, I'll become a Muslim tomorrow. But here's the deal. If I can prove to you Jesus did not across you'll become a Christian. When he said, deal. Did I ever hear from him again? No. I think he panicked. But the thing was, I'm happy to make that deal. Because I've done my research. Yeah. Look, Jesus, I'm happy to stake my faith on Jesus dying on the cross, because that is just a fact. He didn't feel comfortable with that, which I think raises questions about how secure he is and what he believes them. But it also it also raises questions for every listener, like, would I be ready to come to that same conclusion and, and bet everything on it? Because I'm, I'm I know it for sure. Not just I know it in my heart. Like I know it because of how close I've, I've drawn myself to God and to Scripture. Yeah. And hearing everything. Yeah. Well, I think I think you're touching on a good thing. Like, for sure your testimony is important. And that's something and your testimony is just like fancy language for why you believe in God, how you became a Christian. That's really important. And it's really compelling. But by itself, for a lot of people, it's not compelling enough. So like, if someone's saying, Hey, I've prayed to God, I can't find God, I think it's hard to believe in God. And your response is something along the lines of like, I'm sorry, but you know, I just had these crazy encounters with him. Yeah, the best this person could say is, Well, I'm happy for you, but I don't have that. And so, in some sense, testimonies are really great. And they're useful in their own right. But as an end to that themselves, I think they can oftentimes be inadequate, which I think is where the door for apologetics goes, it's like, okay, I'm not just gonna be able to convince you from my experience, because you obviously haven't had my experience. But we're both rational creatures. Perhaps we can talk about that. And you can see some of the reasons I'm believing besides just this personal experience, which you don't share. Yeah, no, that's so good. And that's literally where where I have felt convicted is after reading that book you gave me I thought about the fact of what if an atheist came up to me and said, Why do you believe in God? Me saying because I've seen what he's done in my life. I cannot believe in him is a completely insufficient response. Because that's like saying the sky is is blue, but they're colorblind. Exactly. Okay, great. But yeah, that doesn't help me. Right. So I think so. It's just I love the fact that being able to, to, to ask for shins is actually a really freeing thing. And there's, there's, there's no kind of confines within it because I think people get scared of asking questions, because there's kind of this misnomer that oh, they're asking questions, their faith is on the rocks. And I think that's one of the best places to be in. Interface is asking questions, because that shows how much you actually want to learn as much as you can. I have a one of my my good buddies. He's a international speaker on the Christian faith. And it's Alex Stark, but he gives us an example of doubt is like a fruit in your backpack, and you take it out in the right time, you can deal with it, and it's fine. But if you don't deal with it, it's just gonna grow moldy, it'd be a problem. So doubt questions. Great. That's how you learn. If you I mean, wasn't it? I believe it was Socrates. Philosophers checking on this, Socrates, the unexamined life is not worth living. But so this is the same with doubts. I think we could transfer that the unexist examined faith, like what is that? Think about your faith? And so if you have doubts, but you're never willing to ask them, then actually just putting yourself in a vulnerable position for the first person who can really articulate those doubts can give you reasons why there's a good reason to not believe in God, you've just backed yourself into a corner because you've never dealt with. The fruit has gotten moldy as my friend Alex would say, That's so good. There's definitely a lot of benefits to digging into this, both personally and then in terms of sharing your faith with others. Exactly. So slider I think that was extremely helpful. Thank you for all of those practical tips. Yes. Let's talk briefly about your faith journey. Because what people don't know, is you today is nothing anybody in the family saw coming from the standpoint of me? Yes. And you're currently a teacher. Yeah. So let's, let's talk about where you came from, to where you are now. So we're ending with this instead of starting with it. And I think this is this is a good place to be because it shows people that where you are right now does not count you out for where you aspire to be in the future in your faith. As a believer, as a friend, as a, as a married person, you know, so, yeah. So what was you went to a Christian school growing up and in college, but to people's unbelief? Maybe you faith wasn't actually something that was normally practiced outside of going to church on Sundays? Righto? Yeah, I mean, I think for me, yeah, I mean, anyone who knows High School version of me like it would be a joke to say, I went to Oxford. Think I graduate in the top two thirds of my high school graduating class, get it shot out Franklin Regional? Yeah. Just never really cared about academics. So that's why this journey has been surprising for most for me, because it's not what at all what I expected. But here's the thing, kind of your classic High School jock, seeking fulfillment, satisfaction, all the wrong places. I say that now in hindsight, at the time didn't know that. So Jesus in John four, he sees this woman at a well, She's a Samaritan and she, we find out what have you read the passage, she's looking for satisfaction, all the wrong places, namely, her relationships with men. She's been married five times she's on she's with her sixth man, she's moved in. Yeah. She's at this, well, drinking water. And Jesus said, If you knew who asked you for water, you would ask him for water. And you know, he would give you water from rivers of living water, something like that. And then he goes on to say, whoever drinks the water I give will never thirst. Which is just this really profound comment because it raises the question are, am I thirsty? And that's how I would summarize pretty much my entire life before Christ is this compelling thirst and I know like, thirsty is like this haha, like Thirsty Thursday, but to actually experience it is devastating. Like, it's not funny, it's like, it's a lackluster life, like seeking fulfillment, satisfaction all around places because as CS Lewis said, you know, if I have within myself a desire, which nothing in this world could satisfy, the most logical explanation is I was made for another world. So for me, it was not that satisfaction was not there, but I was looking in the wrong places. Did you? Did you identify it as thirst at the time? I think so. I mean, I think I think it was able to better diagnose it, in hindsight, but for me, this is what did it. I was forced to go to a Christian sports camp, which I, you know, loved. I mean, you can imagine High School jock having to go to dorky Christian camp, you might hear my mom chuckling in the background. It's just a nightmare. But here's what the camp did for me. First time in my life that I saw Christians who, for whatever else they had, they had like a genuine joy within them. And I just knew personally Like, hey, whatever they have, I want that. But like, that's, I'm down with that. So I just thought, you know, if I was going to be a Christian shaved my head, you know, be a monk for the rest of my life no serious. I mean, it sounds like I mean, in terms of like cool things. Christianity was at the bottom of like, I'd have 17 I do not want to be a monk, maybe when I've had my phone, I'll go be a monk, but not now. But, but these questions were awesome. And they just had something that I knew I was looking for and didn't have. And I was like, I want that. I'm all in for that. And I think afterwards, I was like, Yeah, that was the total satisfaction I was looking for. And so that's kind of how we became a Christian. And then I alluded to it earlier, very early on, I had a like, quite dogmatically atheist classmate just like kind of bully me. And I was in that really tough position of like, I was Christian, but didn't know and, you know, asked my parents and they didn't know and it's kind of like, what's going on? Like, who even has answers like, do are the answers out there? Are we just believing a sham? And so I kind of started this journey, personal research of like, is there answers out there. And that has led me to do, surprisingly to me two more master's degrees, perhaps a PhD down the road of like, I've just fallen in love with understanding the intellectual undergirding of the faith. And it's just been a real joy. Since then I've just going deeper and deeper, trying to understand the complexities of this beautiful, complex faith and being able to communicate that to others. I love that. If you could leave people with with one bit of encouragement, one, one piece of advice, one pebble in the shoe. Well, pebble in the shoe for our listeners, what would it be? I think I would just ask the question again. Have you ever talked to anyone about your faith? Serious question, Have you ever talked to anyone? Because last time I checked, Jesus left the earth and commanded us to go and make disciples to the ends of the earth. And so my challenge if you are sitting here listening, and you go to church, you do go to a small group, but you literally never talked to anyone who's not a Christian. Are you carrying forth that great commission to the ends of the earth? If not, let's start having conversations. It is not that hard to say, Hey, how was your weekend? Good. How was your weekend? Oh, good. I went to church, this happened, everyone good. If you're going to church, you can talk about the sermon. That's an easy thing. If you're a teacher like me, boom, you can go a little deeper. If your student you can say thanks. But you can always you can always put the pebble in other people's shoes. So for me, the pebble I want to put in your shoe is to put the pebble in other people's shoe. So it'd be a double pebble action. Oh, like a skipping? Yeah, the skipping pebble in your shoe into their shoe. Perfect. That's how I want to end. I think that's a perfect way to end great cider. I love you. I'm so proud of you. And what you like was, you are turning people towards Jesus on a podcast. That's right. We did it. Found it. So right after we finished the episode, my mom who was part of the live family audience, of course, had some extra questions. So I decided, let's do a bonus speed round. So I set the timer for five minutes for mom to ask my brother as many questions as you possibly could have just listened to the episode. And she only agreed to do it if she wouldn't appear on camera. So you get to hear her voice instead. Let's go later. For the believer. Yes. Maybe a new believer, maybe a young believer, and they are in a conversation with someone who says I don't believe in Jesus. Yeah, that's that's tough. No, that's not for me. Yeah. And the young Christian is standing there at the point of wanting desperately to say something wanting to share their faith. Yeah, but just terrified and has no idea where to begin. What is that little thing that we can have in our back pockets that we can always rely on? Yeah, I think I'd say a few things. I think first, I don't think it's our responsibility. Like I don't think we should feel pressure of like, we just need to convert everyone we come in contact with. And so I think it is quite realistic that some people we're going to come in contact with just frankly, don't give a darn and have zero interest. For me. That's okay. Blaise Pascal, French mathematician, philosopher he wants to the heart has reached has its reasons for which reason does not which means, in essence, sometimes that sometimes people's objections to Christianity aren't intellectual, they're emotional. And so if it's an emotional objection, then you giving an intellectual reason isn't going to get them necessarily any closer. I think in that situation, if they're like, Oh, well, you know, Christianity is not for me, Jesus, not for me, whatever. One you can always ask questions like, oh, well, like, so can you tell me more about that? Why is that the case? Why don't you believe why isn't it for you? Oftentimes, that is very right for you getting a greater understanding of like, oh, you know, it's just all made up and they like, Well, I mean, what do you mean it's made up like you think it's a fairy tale like and so you can just ask clarifying questions, which if nothing else, it serves to challenge them. I've like actually have actually thought about these things before or am I just kind of making it up because I've heard these things. So one you're making you're at least forcing them to confront their own world so not even not even really being concerned about their Answer and having to respond to their answer. You're just really asking them to think about their stance. Yeah, that to me, that is as much helping them as you sharing your faith with them. Because if they've left a conversation with you, and if nothing else, they've realized that they don't actually have very good reasons for not being a Christian. So you've done them a great service. Okay? So even though we may not feel equipped to respond to their answer, or to add any value to the common beauty of asking questions, you don't have to give them any answers to ask thoughtful questions that if nothing else can expose the shortcomings of their reasoning, or if they have really thought about it, while they've just met a really nice Christian who cared and didn't try to tell them they were wrong, which could be a breath of fresh air for them. Well, yeah. And I think that is great, because it allows us to do something and not regret. Oh, yeah. Why did I say something? Yeah. And I mean, the thing is, for whatever reason, like over the years, Christians, unfortunately, have garnered an unfortunate reputation for kind of bullying people and just treating them as I need to convert you. And this is the end to like, our friendship, like, I don't actually care about you as a person, I just care about you as a future convert. And, man, what a great way to fight that. It's just actually treating people like humans, and like, Hey, I brought up my faith, you didn't seem interested, I got to know you, and I treated you like a human being loving, in terms of a very basic level. Anyone can ask questions without knowing anything. So like, if you say, Well, I just I don't believe in Christianity, cuz that's just not for me. You don't have to know anything else to listen to that question. So why isn't it for you? And then on? On the flip side, what if they in turn, say, why do you believe, which is kind of the thrust of this conversation, you're doing yourself a disservice both in your relationship with God and with others, if you actually don't know why you're a Christian? So, I mean, here's my pebble in the shoe. Why are you a Christian because your parents were a Christian. That's not a good enough reason. It's your own relationship. It's your own belief. And so take responsibility. proverbial oblique, grab the bull by the horns and seek to understand the faith that you have, and not just kind of have something and practice something that you don't really even understand. If you don't have those answers. What is something you can say? If you don't have those answers in a conversation, like you don't know how to say you don't know how to articulate why you believe? Well, I think you can say, Yeah, you know, honestly, that's a really great question. I'm not really sure I'll look into that. But I think honestly, if that if you get to that point, that person has done you a great service. Because I mean, for me, Christianity would be a pretty boring hobby, if it was just a hobby, but if it's true, and like you're, you're going through this relationship, it's a really life giving thing, but to just kind of go through the motions. So a lot of work with not much gift back if it's not genuine. So that's a great gift to realize, I actually don't know I'm a Christian, maybe I need to think about it and then get back to you on this. Well, I told you, it was gonna be a good one. Right? Okay. So here's some of the takeaways. One, asking questions is a good thing. No matter what you believe it's important to know fully why you believe it so that you can share it with someone else over to the more you want to learn about someone else's worldview, the better the conversation is going to be. The goal is not to argue it's to learn number three, this one challenged me in immense amount when my brother said, not being prepared to give an answer could be seen as a form of disobedience. Whoa, number four, when he went into that entire thought process of a good way to just start reading, the Bible is setting aside 10 minutes, put your phone on airplane mode, pray about it before you read it. Just say, Hey, God, I want to see something in this. Can you just illuminate something? Or you can just say, can you just show me something that I haven't seen before? What do you want me to get out of this? And then spend one to two minutes reading one singular chapter and spend eight minutes just thinking about it. writing down what questions are you asking? As you read that? What do you want to know more of now this was an encouraging moment when my brother said that just by showing someone that you genuinely love them, and by showing them compassion, you are painting a compelling picture of Christianity without someone even asking a question or without even needing to answer a question about it. Number five, whenever you said don't let the fruit go moldy as in when you're doubting go to get those questions answered. Now, there's no better time than when you're thinking about it. And maybe there's a really good reason for it. Don't be afraid of your doubts. Don't be afraid of your questions, because God is not afraid of them either. Number six, my brother's final challenge. Have you engaged in a conversation about your faith? Have you shared your face with anyone recently? And if not, there's no better time than the present. I'm really excited. We have a lot of amazing episodes coming up such as how to find and build amazing friendships how to trust God when The door shuts on your dream and how to be fearless, which actually is coming from a professional stunt woman's perspective. So a lot of exciting episodes coming up, so be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss a thing. Cue Aerosmith. I of course want to know what some of your takeaways were, as well as topics you would love to hear conversations about on this very podcast. So hey, let's have a conversation about it. And if you loved this conversation, then please feel free to subscribe because we drop new conversations right here on the accidentally intentional channel every two weeks and speaking of if you did like this conversation, you're probably gonna like this one, too, because it's the previous episode where I talk with my good friend Lou about singleness shame and what the gospel actually means for all of us. So click there and I'll see you in the next video.