This is the accidentally intentional podcast. I'm your host, Joe. I hate small talk, and I'm ready to have meaningful conversations that build us. Let's go. So on today's episode, you are invited in to experience a truly next level conversation. Today's guest Spencer tail has been a really good friend of mine for the past almost seven years. Now, you may remember from one of my earlier episodes that I had a friend who asked me when I was actually going to launch the podcast, and not just let me get away with saying, Oh, I'm going to launch it at some point. Well, that person was actually Spencer. So I'm so grateful for the Challenger and constant encouragement he is and I can't wait for you to see it on full display for yourself today. He's kind of like a big brother in my life and is truly one of the funniest people I know. I always love the banter we have together because we both have the same sense of humor and wit. So I guess it's up to you to decide today if we're actually funny or just out of our minds. In today's episode, let me tell you, Spencer is one of the most talented people I know seriously. He is a speaker, a rapper, a photographer, a videographer. He actually produced Ben Roethlisberger his newest Docu series on YouTube, just literally anything he puts his mind to creatively, I swear, it turns to go. I'm not even kidding. I have so much respect for this guy. And in this episode, we get real deep because the topic is how to transform your life and completely change direction. And so we discuss how Spencer went from being a drug addict in Florida, to sharing the Gospel all over the United States within a couple years time. But hold on, because regardless of what your religious beliefs are, I truly believe this conversation is for anyone and everyone that wants to be challenged and wants to grow. As a person. I hope you guys are buckled up and ready to dive in to this incredible conversation I have with Spencer tail on how to change direction and transform your life. But today, I have the honor and pleasure of chatting with my friend Spencer Dale. And if the last name sounds familiar, it's because his wife was in the church hurt episode. She's trying to wave in the background, but I've cropped her out of the scene. So this is really awkward. So essentially, you can you can laugh Ken's live audiences studio, I guess think we're actually funny that she does that in my normal life. I know. I'm actually I've come to learn. I'm not that funny. But my wife is laughs and everything I know, I only keep her like, I get it. I keep only people that think I'm funny that way. I have a small group of friends. I get it tight. And I always feel good about myself that's store my life. Or my life. Yes. So Spencer and I are pretty. We've pretty similar interests. We're both like really creative artistic people. It obviously requires that's how I say it to exactly. Just like that. But we were on silvering thing tour together. So that was how we met. And Spencer has, by all means a pretty crazy story of how his life was literally transformed. And how he completely changed directions from where he was headed. So we're going to talk about that today. This is an encouraging conversation, to show anyone wherever they are that you actually have the ability to not stay where you are, but actually move and pivot to where you hope to go. I'm really excited to dig into it with your Spence, let's do it. Let's do some dig. I did bring shovels so glad Yes. Last knew you'd want to dig into it. Thank you so much. I'm here and we can have the treasure hunt afterwards. I told you I told you you would want to do the treasure hunt. Exactly. So good wife already regrets being here. So bummed out. She's like, I'm so distracted. I'm missing ice cream for this. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So Spence, let's first talk about where you were in life before you decided to come to Jesus. Yeah, come to faith. Yeah. Okay. So I think the it's probably best to start when I was really young because I think my parents got divorced when I was running around four years old. And that was a pretty significant and influence I think through through, you know, growing up as I'm sure it is for anybody who experiences divorce. That being said, I I always looked up to my older brother, like, I have a brother who's two years older than I am, I just thought he was like the dopest dude in the world like he is he's he's pretty, pretty cool. And I just wanted to be him. So anything he did, I wanted to do and he's got a personality that will just light up any room who's ever been in? He's you hear him before you see him, that kind of guy. So as we were growing up, he got into a lot of different social circles, circle of friends, right? Some of that was in the party scene. And, and so me being his kid, brother just kind of got grandfathered into that. So at a really young age, he and I just started experiment with drugs. And the unfortunate thing about doing that is a lot of times, you know, you can get hooked on that stuff. And so that's exactly what happened. To us. I remember being 15 I think, was first time I started experimenting with stuff, you know, we were sneaking out of our parents house man doing all the things that seem harmless when you're in high school, right? You're just doing all these things, but it just continued to spiral out of out of control and got to the point where like, I was feeling super depressed when I was teenager, and that led to more poverty and whatnot. So it got really bad to the point where I was pretty heavily addicted to OxyContin and cocaine, in high school. You know, and, and, I mean, I was just, I feel like I was just talking to my wife about this the other day, it's like, I don't remember. I don't remember aspects of high school, like, I think I have a handful of high school memories that don't involve some kind of narcotics. And it's like a crazy thing, like, you see, like, I don't know, like Netflix specials, or TV shows that like, oh, the high school when it's like, oh, going off to college or whatever, like that, I just, it's such a foreign concept to me, because all of mine was a blur and under the influence, and, and so and that carried into obviously, my, my later teens and into my early 20s. And I got so bad that like, when I was 18 years old, my my parents kicked me out, like, Hey, you can either stop doing drugs, or you gotta get out of our house, like, we can't have that. Or my my brother, they had the same conversation, my brother, like seven months before this. So they, they ended up sending my brother out to my biological father's house out in San Francisco. And they're like, you get the brilliant people, warrants out people wanting causes harm, like it was just a bad scene, just to save our lives. You know, that's kind of what my mom was thinking. So he was out there, I was like, You know what, I don't want to stop doing drugs. So I ended up living out of my car, I was homeless for a while. And I got into a car accident. And that was pretty much the turning point. For me, too. I was like, I had literally nothing like, when I was living in my car, at least have my car, right, at least I could park it in a Walmart parking lot, or whatever. And as if I had that, and had $5 with the gas in the tank, because that's all I could afford. I was fine. And so after I wrecked that I just call my mom up. And I was like, bawling my eyes out. And, you know, in an attempt to save my wife, she'd sent me to go live with my, my dad out and well, my dad, my brother out in California, so. So as you're as you're sick in the drug scene, what were you feeling in those moments? Or was it all a blur? Yeah, I mean, it's, I think hindsight, obviously, is 20. But I'm pretty confident when I say like, when, like, I was always aware it was doing the wrong thing. You know, I mean, like, I was always aware, I think a lot of like, I probably didn't know this back then. But I think sitting here, you know, looking back, like, I was definitely just searching for some level of significance, I think, oh, man, I think every 15 year old is I think every human being is, but I think, you know, specifically, you're 15 you're looking for something, you know, I did it with music for a while, you know, and that's, you know, obviously a lot more socially accepted, when you can make music for people and doing drugs and you know, numbing it, you know, but yeah, it was just kind of trying to find a way to make sense of things. So I think a lot of, I think a lot of what was motivating my drug use in the beginning, because at some point in time, the chemicals just take over, you know, and that's the dangerous part, man, you know, is, is at some point in time, like, the human being underneath all that has lost control, you know what I mean? And so, but early on, you're just you're just kind of, you're just trying to numb it make sense of it. You don't know who you are, you don't know, you know, who you're supposed to be. It's, it's being human man. And so, and if you don't have somebody to kind of help you navigate being human, you just go looking for it in different places, you know, and so I don't think I think that's just a normal. I think that's a normal experience. A human being is like, you know, it's in the church. It's the reason for discipleship. It's like, well, let me let me help navigate, to help you learn to navigate this, this this new life that you have, and so I'm You know, if you don't have that, you know, whether it be the lack of a father, whether it be lack of role models, whether it be lack of community, whatever it was, man, I just, I was just left to my own devices. And so a lot of it was that I think I was just feeling lost. I think I was probably, I didn't want to experience pain, you know, so you just tend to numb it. And, and then unfortunately, like a lot of people, in my case, the chemicals just took over. Yeah. Do you think there was a point? Because everyone's on some sort of pursuit of happiness? Right? Yeah. Do you think that your hope was drugs? Would at one point be that for you? Or was it just like you got into it? You're like, I don't know. Yeah, no, there's definitely a turning point. I remember pretty clearly, like the day that I was, like, I came to terms that I was addicted to drugs, which is a really weird experience in life. Because there's a connotation with drug addiction, right? There's you've had, if you've not personally experienced it, you have, you might have heard of it, you know, a loved one, like you've had some level of experience around that phrase, that gives you a preconceived notion. And I had that as well. Even though I was doing drugs. My grandma did this stuff, man. We're just partying, we're just having a good time, whatever, just chillin, whatever. I was at my friend's house, and his parents were at time, and we had just picked up some pills. And we were in the bathroom. And we just had this conversation. And we were doing the drugs. And I was like, Nah, man, I'm good. I'm fine. Like, we just enjoyed doing it. We I could stop whenever I wanted. And then I remember he went upstairs, and I was looking at myself in the mirror. And I was like, Oh, I can't stop this. And there was this real moment of like, everything I just said to him about like, our good was a complete lie. I knew what it knew it like it was it was a weird, it was a very weird moment. You don't think you're ever gonna have to have that moment, right? As a human. So yeah, yeah. Well, there comes this point when you're like, Okay, I don't want this to be my life anymore. And you said a couple minutes ago that you knew it was wrong. And I think that's an interesting perspective. Because people can be like, it was wrong, because you shouldn't do it. Or it was like, yeah, what? What was wrong about it in your mind? And Did it scare you? Like, how did you go through that? First of all, life is terrifying. Like that whole, like, I remember, I had more weapons pulled on me before I was 18. Living on like streets. I don't know, like, you're showing up to random houses with people like they don't care about your life, man. They care about making money. Like that's what that is. And so you're just showing up there because you're you have this addiction to get something and you you you risk dum, dum stuff, like you're you will risk your life to go acquire this and not think twice about it. And so it's, it's a Yeah, so it's definitely it's all terrifying. But what was the first part? Of course, yeah. Did you feel shame in that moment? Like, what made you decide this is wrong? Oh, yeah. So I think a couple levels of that one, you know, is wrong, because it's illegal, right? If your love majority of your life is trying not to get caught by the cops, and so you're finagling that, you know, it's your air, it's always on your mind. You're an outcast of society. I look like a zombie. You know what I mean? So you everyone's kind of always aware you don't trust anybody. And so, but not only that, but like, your friends around you are dying. And so you know what's wrong? Because, you know, at any point in time, it could be you. Well, you know, I mean, like, I, like I on fours had to bury, like four of my closest friends my senior year in high school. And it was just one of those things. Like, again, it's terrifying. It's one of those things where it's like, oh, man, yeah, it was so and so this week. You know, I mean, I remember going to one of my friend's funeral. And like, it was it was just like, you got the news. It was, like, devastating, but you're like, and none of us stopped. You know, it was like, I was with him, like, two nights before, like, none of us that were just okay. All right, well, we'll mourn. But then right after you leave the funeral, what do you think you're gonna go do man, you got to know, all right, because we're running. We've been running from this pain the entire time, man, we just experienced the more at the hands of this thing. And now we're using and so it's this weird cycle. So, you know, it was wrong for a lot of reasons. But obviously, it's external. But there's also internal man like, I'm a firm believer that like, especially as a Christian, I've come to understand it but even before I pursued my faith, seriously, like, there's some there's a you you have an internal morality, you know what I mean? And like, you don't need you don't need to, to watch someone get murdered, for you to know and feel whatever that feels for you to know. That's wrong. Like it's just their stuff. Like I don't need to tell you that murder is illegal for you to know that it's wrong. Like there's something in you that happens and so yeah, so I think there's multiple layers to knowing you know, it being wrong, but yeah, you just don't get it. Add in that you still care. That's the that's the dangerous thing. You stopped caring. I stopped caring that it's wrong, I stopped caring that I get arrested, I stopped caring, I could die, I could stop caring if I'm gonna hurt you from selling to, and then sooner or later you're out. Yeah, you know so. So obviously this hearing all this begs the question then how did you stop? How did you get out of it? Honestly, man, this is gonna sound like a super cheesy answer. So buckle up by the grace of God, like 100%. And I'll walk you through it. And hopefully you can see God's hand through that. So I wrecked my car, right. And my mom, and my stepdad sent me out to go live with my biological father. And I'm there and I'm living in the hood of San Francisco. We're in Project housing. Me and my brother, as far as I can see my brother's seven months, and he's still doing his thing. And I get there. And the first thing is like you'll San Francisco man, we got to find we got to find her drugs, right. So can't be that hard, right? And we're sitting, honestly, it took us months because we didn't really know anybody out there. And it got I ended up like, it was probably three weeks before we found anything that that we were addicted to, you know, you can find like shrooms, and like, but I never, like I never did any of that stuff. Like it was, you know, pills and Coke was really what I had a problem with. And so I was never really interested in doing that kind of, you know, smoking weed wasn't again, we didn't really do it for me. But that was everywhere where we live, but we didn't know anybody that had what we were addicted to. So I spent three weeks it's kind of like in I don't know that I left the house outside of going to the corner store to get a pack of cigarettes or something like and I was just like I remember like cold sweating. Just withdrawing. Wow, cold turkey just didn't like with three weeks of just like smoking cigarettes. I was eating like Snickers I don't know why maybe it's like a chemical dopamine thing. But like I ate a lot of Snickers. I smoked a lot of cigarettes drink a lot of coffee. And I just kind of like cold sweat it shook it out cold turkey in and out. By the end of that time. Like my brother had found somebody there that could got us some Percocet, and so different painkiller. But I remember getting that I remember taking it. And I remember after I took it, I felt like do you we're almost out. Are you almost out of here? You were three weeks without it, man, you're almost out of this thing. And you just add a habit and opportunity message. Oh, you just reset the clock. Wow. Wow. You know, I mean, and so then there was a period of time when you stopped caring, you're like, you start running and but in the back of my mind, I was like, man I own like, it could have been it man. Like that could have been it, you know. And so we fell into a heavy out there. And then I remember I was in I was I had a job at a deli in San Francisco making sandwiches. And his old lady came in and invited me to church, like just Oh, like just, and we have random customer random. Like, we're just one of those old ladies, that is just like, way too on fire for the Lord that like will make it awkward on the pocket, right? And again, I'm in San Francisco, like circa 2009. Right? So it's not it's not the most Jesus friendly place in the world. Right? So she just found out like, I guess she would frequent that deli and knew that I was new there, and just invited me to church and granted like I grew up in the church casually, I probably would label myself like a casual Christian. You know, that might have been where some of my like morality, you know, came from early on, like, I always knew that. I always believe that there was a god I just hoping he wouldn't pay attention to me. I was like, Yeah, we good. He's got his hands full. Like it is what it is, you know, so. And I was like, Yeah, okay, she can't be business cards. Okay, lady was like, this is super weird. Like, I'm, at this point in my life. I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm good on all that. Like, I'm just trying to, I got so much on my life. I'm trying. I'm not worried about this. Jesus thing, man. And so, for some reason, though, I just like, I remember taking that card home, talking to my brother, who ended up going to that church, like, like me and my boy Eman. It was like, Hey, dude, we're gonna go check out this church in San Bruno, bro, do you want to come through? And like, I don't have I can't tell you why we decided to do it. How we got there. I'm sure we took the bar like i don't i All of that is erased from my memory. I cannot. I do not know how we wire or how we got to the church. We go there. There's like 11 people there. It's a small house, like this room might be bigger than the church. Like it's a small house. And there's, there's like 11 people, including the pastor, his wife, who are the worship team. And I remember I saw the lady that invited me in the front row. And afterwards the pastor was like 26 years old at times, and I was like, 19 and so I was like, talking to him and he came in you know, we're looking for you know, musicians if you know any I've been playing guitar since I was like 11 Right. So music was my thing and says, Yeah, I could do that man. Whatever. He invited me to play in the band. And again, I have no idea why I wasn't sure man. So we practice on Wednesdays? Oh, yeah, whatever. Oh, and I was out there and I was like smoking a cigarette right outside of the church and I was okay man. Yeah, we'll see whatever he gave me. You gave me his number. And I'll hit you up. And I went back and I, I can't tell you why. I didn't know the first thing. Krishna music I said to him, like I thought it was all wack. I still think a lot of it's wack to this day. Like, I just thought it was super wack but and he he showed me one song from like, Hillsong and I'd never heard of them before. And it was like, why is song in their name? Yeah, no, I thought legitimately that thought like why song and in the name of a band, like That's so cheesy. Like, I'm like these people never gonna make it like this is so wack but I remember like it was the was the our God has an awesome God. It was that verse with the drums that I kind of thought I was like, that's kind of No, all right. I was like, that's kind of dope. It was the drums that Gotcha. It was the drums with the vocals over the anytime you put like a like a very like anthemic chorus, good work. Thank you, you know, just studying them word of the day can dictionary dictionary get the sources. So anytime you put like one of those big like, arena feeling choruses over just drums into it. I mean, I'm about that. I'm that same way with gospel music, right? If there's if there's an angelic choir, yeah, sign me. So Hercules. Hello. That's the jam. That's why it's my favorite movie isn't really literally. So for that reason. That's like your favorite movie? Yeah, I wore the Hercules jacket. And my combo was so amazing. I didn't know that. But you know, it's funny if you would have had this totally off topic, but it's fine. If you would have been like, Yo, like, what's his favorite Disney movie? I think I might have guessed it. I think so too. But because of the gospel music. I'm like, yo, she got a lot of soul. Yes, that's where I got my roots from American I just studied from Olympus. Right? Yeah, I went the distance. Come on, Matt. Hey, hey, girl. We all are here. Anyways, back to you. Yeah, no, that's, that's that's good to know. That's actually a fun fact. Now you guys know that. Um, ya know, so I just kept I kept going back to this church. And I don't know why I thought the guy was cool. I thought his wife was cool. She played piano and sang and she had a phenomenal voice. I love music. I had an opportunity to play it. He was kind of like this. I remember one of my very first memories with him is we broke into the mall to go skating. Like we were skateboarding and the cops came and was the pastor for the past. I'm dead. Right? That's what I'm saying. So that's what I'm saying. And so he went and the cops came and my, my criminal instinct was like, oh, we gotta go, we gotta run. I had nothing on me. Like, I don't think I had anything on and I was like, oh, no, I gotta, I might have to run here. This is where I run. And he's like, yo, it's fine. I got this. And he walked up to the cop. And I heard him say, Oh, I'm the pastor, that church right down there. I just thought that was the dopest thing ever, that he had to tell the cop that he was a pastor of a church. And he's like, I'm sorry, man. I'm the pastor of this church and the cop. Let's go. It's like, make you a candy skateboard. And I was like, I'm taking notes. I was like, I was like, so that's how you get out. I was just super dope. I just thought that was that was really, I just thought all Christians were super lame. Yeah, it was my life experience to that point. And so the fact that he wasn't was the man. But it's interesting, because there was no overt pull towards that. It sounds like, like different than the pool that was towards drugs. Right? Yeah. Do you think? Do you think we're bored? Do you think you were just one of that change of pace? Like? No, I mean, I think and this is, and this is, I think, evident in a lot of people who struggle with addiction is like, I think, you know, like your, I don't think you're unaware of what's happening in your life. I don't think you're happy with I wasn't, you know, I mean, I think you do drugs, because you're not. And at some point in time, man, if if you live long enough to get tired, you get tired. And so and you've only really ever seen a couple of ways out of this, right. And so you see people who who get clean, get sober, get get on with their lives and are able to contribute to, to building up community and society, whatever man contribute to your family. And then you see people who get locked up, and you can see people will get buried. And so at some point in time, and I was like, these are my options here. I was like, I got out as I was living in like in the Tampa Bay area in Florida. And I got shipped out to San Francisco, California. I'm like, I don't know nobody out here. I can't and that was tough. I was dating a girl who was ruining my life with back there and then that had to break off like that had a lot probably into influence my my drug use and then and I had this was my only shot. Like if I was going to do it if I was going to stop what I was doing, and and redefine who I am and in the legacy of my life. It's going to happen right here. And for some reason, I knew that I didn't know the scope of what it meant. Like I was 19 I think when I got Over the might have been might have been turning 20. So I didn't I didn't know the scope of legacy or what it meant for, you know, man being a man and the role of man. I didn't know any of that stuff. But I had this internal, like, I was aware of man, like, I think and I think people who struggle with addiction, like, you know, yeah, it's not like they don't know, you know, I mean, it's like, we know what we just can't stop, whether it be environment, whether it be whatever it is, but I think, honestly, and I've had this conversation a handful of times, and like, if I've spoken at, like, NA meetings or stuff is, for me, that one contributing factor, like the tangible contributing factor, because I think the number one was the Holy Spirit, like sparing me, but I think how he decided to do that was changing my environment. There's no way there was no way I was going to get off the drugs in Florida. It just wasn't gonna happen. I was too connected. Yeah. And it's, it sounds like people that knew at the time would say you were the least likely person, one of them. There's a lot of us, but one of them. Yeah, for sure. And so just before we continue the story, just to clarify, do you think the accidental withdrawal you had made you have a different sense of reality, like, where it enabled you to confront things differently? Yeah, cuz it was we were kind of just talking about this. But yeah, it was, I never had a rep, I never had an opportunity to to experience not having the drug and having to face without I used the drug to run from got it. I didn't have one of those. Because every time I felt that thing, I just went and got high. And so because I couldn't get high, I was then faced, I was I was then forced to face that thing. I always run from whatever that is, whether it be like insecurity, whether it be, you know, obviously the physical and mental trauma of withdrawals, like that's, that's a whole different podcast, man, like that experience. And so like, really, I mean, because, because taking your life seems like a plausible option, you're like, I can just stop this. And that's a dangerous thing that a lot of people get to manage, and that a lot of people might not understand the severity of, of people who are trying to get off of drugs or recovering. Like, that's, that's a it's a difficult thing, man. And so, like, your body chemicals are changing, you know, I'm saying you've been so dependent on something. So yeah. So, you know, as, as that's happening, like, it's a very, very difficult process. And so when I had the opportunity to actually face it, and then you get through the storm, you realize, Oh, I did it. Well, you don't I mean, like, okay, so I didn't like the way it felt. But it didn't ruin me. It didn't kill me. It wasn't the end of the world. Interesting. And then in that in my scenario, and that, that by the time I realized that I had an opportunity to do drugs and out of reflex, my back, but I had that experience, I had the experience of like, so there is something over there. through there. There is something on the other side. And if I kind of felt good, you know, I mean, I wasn't like, afraid like he was Yeah, and so I think so I think for sure, I think I was getting me off the drugs man the same time he was introducing, but I would say to man, like, even going back and thinking about it, like that's a very important aspect is you cannot remove with without replacing it. Right. So if you take something that is that you are dependent on, out, yep, you need to replace it with something healthy to depend on. Because your legs are just too You're gonna you need some Aleena Yes, right. And so in my experience, I had my community ripped. I had my girl I was dating that relationship. I had my brother was what he was going through his own thing, man. And so I was I kind of felt like a lone wolf in some regard. But then this this dude who's passed on, and his wife literally moved me into the parsonage. Well, like I was living with them. And we were remodeling. They moved from Alabama, to San Francisco to plant a church. And so we're remodeling all this. Yes. Yeah, it was crazy. So I'm out there doing all this stuff. And I'm just hanging out with them. And he just because like something there's something about them just I didn't judge me like they would let me like, like, I played in the worship band. I lived their house, they would always buy me burritos. I probably own so much money. Like for real like so much money? Because I wasn't even considered about it. I wasn't like, Oh, I know. You guys are struggling pastor. I was like, all you debt. Like it was like it was so yeah, obviously. Parker I'm gonna write you a check, man. So, yeah, and they would let me just like after dinner, I just go smoke a cigarette on their porch, or they would just let me like they would let me just be they would. They were things obviously, Hey, man, you're not here's, here's what you're not gonna bring in my house. But as you're figuring out how to not do that, I'm gonna let you figure it out. And so it was him and it was it was a beautiful example of how of how to love Jesus and be in the mess. You know, I mean, so yeah, and It did wonders for me, man. Yeah. So so that's what really set the stage. Yes. transformation for you example. Yeah. You know, I mean, because again, I mean, so feeders you follow it, right I have this, I have this experience where I get a glimpse of, of life without drugs. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's interesting. Like, there's something in me that starts desire that cuz I'm just tired at this point, I don't want to die. You know, as far as I can remember, like, I've been afraid of death, right. And so, but I watched it so much when I was throughout high school. I didn't want that to happen, but couldn't stop this. I'm trying to stop this. I don't know how to do that thing that I experienced. Right. And then I got an example. And I got a dude who's like, who looked like me talk like me, like, was into the same kind of stuff, like was into like, hardcore music and like skateboarding, and was into like, the same kind of stuff as me, but didn't have the same problems I had, but came from it. It was like, Yo, man, you can there's possibly like, there's, there's a way out. Yeah. And he could he and I had an example to turn to Him. So a lot of my faith, but a lot of my, my, what it meant to be a man and establish my life. I just stole from him. You know, I mean, so as I'm, as I'm removing this one thing, I'm replacing it with whatever he's willing to give me, you know. And so I think that's extremely important to realize as you're navigating your life, because I think it's so so often we focus, and you should focus on what we need to cut out. Very important. But if you're not also replenishing that with something that's, that's healthy and can sustain this, congratulations made by yourself. So good. You see this example. And you said, up to this point, you were just hoping God was not paying attention to you go back to that moment for me, where you actually decide, okay, I think I kind of want faith. Like, how did how did you get there? Yeah, it was a long process like, so anytime I've previously shared my testimony. I always feel a little bit bad because I'd never have enough time to, like, tell people how things happen in real life. Yeah. So it turns out like, Oh, I was a friggin idiot. And I did all these stupid things. And then Jesus, and we're all good. And I think anybody who's lit, I'm not that happens. I've definitely seen them happen. And it's like, it blows my mind. Like, it's, I think I get so much glory from that. But I mean, not that he doesn't get from here. But for me, it was just I kind of, like fumbled through it. It was a progression over time. It was like it was that that weird? Dance of like two steps forward, one step back, fall down flight of stairs, and then get back up. And it was this weird, kind of like, you know, I would just perpetually botch things, in that, you know, I would just do things that were completely unacceptable in the faith community, but it No, because it wasn't my community, I was just there. And so I'll be hearing the gospel on repeat, and then I'd be seeing it lived out, I'd be seeing the implications of the gospel of Jesus Christ on a daily basis, I would see these two, I think Parker was 26. At a time, his wife was 25. At the time, two young Christians with no money, they were dirt poor planning a church giving above and beyond, they would like they would open their house and feed the community. And then I remember going door to door to like, my Hindu neighbors invited him to church like, and for me, I was like, Whatever, dude, I don't know. I didn't know the implications of that. I was just like, Yeah, I'm not afraid of this neighborhood. Like, we'll go into it, whatever. Yeah. And so I didn't realize all that. And so the more more time I spent around Parker, and his wife's name is Starla Park and stuff. And I watched the driving force of their life. I had to like, analyze, what was the driving force a mine. And so for so long, it's it's self like, You're so selfish. Like when you're a kid, you're selfish. And as you get older, hopefully you get less selfish. Unfortunately, a lot of times, we just learn how to mask it well. So we stay selfish, but we we portray ourselves selfless, you know? That's a broad brush, but you know what I mean? And so I just I got to, I got to watch how like, this Jesus thing wasn't a joke to this dude. Yeah, like, he was like, dead serious about it. And it seems like you had this like, almost like a fact checking mentality like you were compelled. Because everything he was saying was actually aligned with his actions. Yeah. And it wasn't perfect. Yeah, like he dropped the ball a lot of times in front of me, but like, it never ruined him. It never like it was it was crazy, even to this day, man. Like, I had my own experiences being saved for over 10 years now. But like, It still blows my mind to think about those examples. Like I got, I watched. I watched him in her navigate it's so well, man and so but yeah, there was just this this. I'm very like problem solving. Like I'm very logical. Okay, so that's the issue. What is that? So I'm just kind of like from a distance analyzing these two like, okay, so you say that but then you do that like, okay, so what? I'm just trying to wrap my brain around it like You guys seem to enjoy like you're not in a great spot in your life. But you seem to have this like it's just sent unshakable man. And just time after time, there was never like, I never felt like a project to them. You know, I didn't feel like they brought me in to like, oh, maybe we can get him saved and send them on his way to like, Nah, man, this kid needs help. And they just want to help. So right now, because we're on that subject, if there is somebody who's listening to this is like, No, I literally have a Spencer in my life, who I'm just like, I don't know what to do with them. What would you say? I'm gonna, I'm gonna cry. Um, do don't don't give up, please. Because I did some terrible things to their family. And they never gave up, man. And it's like, also such a, that's the picture of God. Like he is literally never giving up on us. Yeah. So how dare we? Yeah, and it's not easy. Like, like, what I mean, was just that is 100%. True. Like, I mean, thank God that His love is relentless. But do it. When it's when it's feeling terrible. That that thought of like, Oh, God never gives up. Like, that's not going to comfort you, right? It's just going to feel terrible. And you're just going to be pissed. And it's just going to hurt. And it's just going to be messy. And just, just please, for the sake of whoever that person soul is. Don't give up. Because if, if they would have gave up on me, man, it had been an easy, easy out for me to go back. Yeah, you know, and, and it doesn't mean but to say that man, like, doesn't mean you don't confront some stuff. Like, like Parker laid into me a handful of times. I think love is like loving somebody well, is. It's friggin hard, man. It's a tough thing to do. And you because you don't I don't know. You don't always know what what that means. Right. And so I think you have to, you have to, you have to make sure your intention is is pure, you have to make sure you like your intention is, is at the end of this. I hope that they're better for it, regardless of what action is being taken. You know, and I think that's the that's the biggest problem with it. Because when you're not in it, you think you have the answer. So you're like, I can control this. And you're like, any effort you make to control will literally ruin everything. Yes. Yes. Whatever isn't. So it's so cool that the example was just like, they still let you do you. But showed you that they were? Yeah, it was it was the epitome and I'm sure like if you've been in a church any amount of time and you've heard this phrase is it's okay to not be okay. It's just not okay to build a house there. Right. And so, that was the epitome of that. It was like, Yo, it's like, you're clearly a friggin train wreck, bro. Like, but I don't want to leave you like that. You know what I mean? And so when I so I left San Francisco. How long was there maybe two years. But they left like a week after me. And so it was a crazy thing. Like it was like they had just moved there maybe a month before I did. And then they left a week after me. And so like it was wasn't till I got on tour with silver ranking that I was like, I was doing like a Bible study or whatnot. And they're like, oh, yeah, I think about people, influential people in your life. I thought about Porphyrins dollar. And I was like, Yo, God sent them straight to San Francisco to save me. Yep. Like, God took a uprooted of family from Alabama, sent him to San Francisco to go save a kid from Florida. Just because I was being an idiot. You know what I mean? And like, it's a crazy, it's a crazy, like God's doing things bigger than you think. It's just he just did. And so whatever, whatever it is, we're in the middle of like, it's just, he was just telling you just like, we're just in the middle man. Like, what God is doing is so much it just is man. Like, they didn't think they were. I don't know what they thought honestly, about me. But I've just gone on to be able to preach the gospel to hundreds of 1000s of people. Because of them. Yeah. You know, I mean, yeah. So because they just stuck it out. Right. Yeah. Because they didn't give up man. Yeah, you know, and I made it real hard. Yeah. Real hard. But I would have gave up on me. Probably. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think that's such self awareness. But I think if most of us confront that, it's like, yeah, yeah. But the amount of grace that comes along with those things is sometimes we can't even believe it for ourselves. And then the amount that we can have for other people after we've been through it, because they feel the same way. You know, from that, you start to have the shift where you're like, I actually want faith. you're pursuing it. So how, how are you navigating this because you're still having these desires, they don't go away just because you made a decision. I'm going to change direction. How are you navigating this tension of temptation? And trying to forge ahead? Yeah, I think it's, it's you. So I think things are built the same way. So as I was building this dependency on substances, I was building this dependency on on our building these deeper desires for unhealthy for an unhealthy lifestyle. Healthy desires and healthy, healthy lifestyle choices are healthy dependencies, if you will, are built the same way. Right. And so I actively did that I actively pursue drugs, I actively pursued unhealthy relationships, I actively did those things. All right. So you have to there is there are disciplines involved? Like you have to active you have to know what you stand for. Right. And so I think that's going to be your core foundation. So as a believer, after I gave my life to Christ, you have to learn what that means. Right? It doesn't mean everything's alright. It doesn't mean like, okay, like, now I'm happy. I don't have to suffer depression. This is wrong. Like, there are depressed Christians. Let's just, this is what it is. Right? And so, how you navigate those is there are disciplines you have to understand like, okay, so what do I stand for? Now? What do I, you know, what am I now called to? Because of my faith? And now how do I What can I control to make sure the ship goes that direction? And so that's disciplines of prayer, that's disciplines of worship, that's disciplines of, of looking for healthy community? Honestly, man, I think that's why your podcast is so dope, because I don't know how many people fall into conversations like this. Right? And but this is a conversation you and I have had, like, just right, like, this is just a XO conversation from me. I mean, the fact that we filmed this time is probably wise. But like, this is just a normal conversation for you. People might not know that they listen your podcasts, but like, this is just what you do. And but there's so much value and growth that comes from that, like, you might, God might use something I said, for you. God might use something you said for me, you know what I mean? So like that, but you have to be disciplined in doing that. You have to be disciplined? Well, let me ask a question that learn from somebody. Yeah. You know, and so I think setting up those disciplines, and and getting people around you who want to see you win and know, and people who know what that means. You know, I mean, like, I want to see you win. Awesome. Well, what does that mean? Yeah, what does actually mean, you know, and so define that, and then getting people around you to do that. And then because I think that, I think a lot of times we call it especially with Christians, we call that accountability. But I think we only look at accountability as like people who will call you out. And don't nobody want that. Right. And so although that's a very real part of accountability, encouragement, accountability, so Carl, you're crushing it, I want you to know, like, you've got this, I'm gonna hold you accountable to your goal, whether you need rebuke, or encouragement, I'm still holding you accountable. Like we still gonna get this, you know, say it's such a cool, what do you need? Right. And so I think that's extremely important. And so I think it's yeah, those disciplines, man. But I think one of the probably the biggest outside of, of prayer, reading scripture is community, man, healthy people, healthy people, and you need prayer in Scripture to determine what is healthy, right? Because that will give you the litmus test to gauge your community. Right. And so if you don't have that you're building community without the other two. You might play yourself later on that road. Right. And, and you had to actively seek out community from from that point forward. Yeah. And I think it's so cool, because that's the thing is like, you may have actively been seeking drugs for so long. And like, those are skills God used. Did you know 100%? Yeah, it's it's so cool. And like, maybe the narrative was you fell into it, you don't even know how you got there. But you know, how you stayed? Where you did on both ends of the spectrum. And I think that's what's so amazing about you is because how many years you clean? No, over 10 as well. Yeah. 10 years? Like that's, yeah, I'm in middle school. That's I think that's middle. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's crazy, man. Yeah, it's nothing's neutral. You're choosing not to do something, you're choosing to do something else. It's just what it is. And so if you're sitting there and you're like, Oh, if you're, if you're if you don't work out, you didn't choose not to workout or you're just not work out. You chose not to what you chose to sit on the couch. Okay, come for me, you know, but it's what it is. And if we're not, if we're not intentional with our movements like that. You'll wake up in 10 years and wonder why you see on the same spot, and you'll probably blame something else. So good. So good news, man. Yes. In the middle of conversation, you said when you started pursuing your faith seriously, yeah. Explain the difference. What does pursuing your faith seriously look like as opposed to something else? Yeah. So I think when I pursued my faith, seriously, so what it stems from is the convenience When I mentioned like, oh, like we grew up in church, I always believed there was a God of parent who's not paying attention me. So we prayed like the church on Christmas like we did these things out probably label as a convenient Christian. I think when you start taking your faith seriously, you start allowing it to influence your character, your motivation, your actions, right. And so before then you just using it as like a moral. I don't know, refresh, maybe it's a an identifier of some sort. Maybe it's a, you know, I'm not Jewish, I'm Christian, or I'm not like, it's, it becomes a an accessor I think when you're conveniently pursuing faith, it's an accessory. And you turn to it when it's convenient. Yeah, right. I think when you take your faith seriously, the Christian faith cannot just be in, like authentically, can not be an accessory like Jesus is too big for that. Like, the God of the universe does not sit on a shelf. You're gonna I mean, he sits on the throne. He's not. No, he's not what he probably do got a dope hat, if you will. I mean, if you wanted one outfit would be next level. Kill me with a mouth, I just picture God and elevate the shelf outfit. And be honest, I'm about it. I'm about it. But yeah, I think I think at that point in time, you realize, like, your your faith isn't there to serve you, you're there to serve it. I think that's the big transition. Like, it's not there for me to acquire when I need it. Because that puts me on the throne. When you start to take your face seriously, you start to realize the proper positioning of you and God. And the only reason you are in the throne room, is because a man died on a cross for you and allowed you access, or else you would be nowhere near there. And so, yeah, I think I think every human being has like a throne internally. And whoever sits there calls the shots. I think when you begin to take your face seriously, you get out of the chair, you know, I mean, that was really well, what a great picture to. So Spence, you're amazing. And you know that I love everything about you your story, your wife, I just love all of it. She's the best, she is the best. You got brownie points with that, bro, I want to end with this, because we talked about not giving up on people. But let's say that someone is struggling with some addiction of some sort. If someone feels stuck in this spiral of I literally don't know how to get out of it. It looks too daunting for me to even try. What would you say to that person? Sheesh? I don't know. I mean, assuming that there is an actual desire to want to, to get out of this addiction. Yeah, like there has to be that real desire, because come on, man, like quit. Don't play yourself. Like, if you don't want to stop, you won't. That's just what that is. I think I have to be honest with that. And so. But if there is that, and it's just in, in, you know, that chemical has taken over, so to speak, whether it be you know, like, if it's a porn addiction, you know, obviously, it's different chemicals in your body that are being released. But if you feel out of control of it, man, like, you got to reach out. I never went to rehab. But I know a lot of people who have found that beneficial. Reach out man to somebody, family, friends, and if they don't know what to do, like, it's tough to say give them grace, but like give them Grace man like you because you don't know, either. That's why he reached out right. And so, but for the biggest thing for me, you know, might have mentioned already was this environment. It's just, I had to, I had to get out of my vibe, I had to get out of my routine, I had to get out of these things that were going to enable me like I'm telling you what, 18 year old Spence in Tampa, Florida. I knew how to get anything. Yeah, at any point at any time of day. Any way possible? I could, I could figure it out. Yeah. When those things are removed from you, it forces you forces your hand a little bit. And so and I'm the kind of guy that like, I'll, I'll finagle my way through it, you know, and so when I got those things removed, man, it was a game changer. So I think your environment is huge. And it's tough, because that's the most uncomfortable thing ever. Right? And so I hated San Francisco for the first three months. I live there, man, I thought it was the worst. And obviously I love it now but like it because it wasn't it wasn't what I knew. I didn't have all of my resources to do what I wanted to do. But I needed that and so I think environments huge I think communities Number Number two, I think I probably would put environment at least for me one, but communities to me, like get people in your corner who are going to fight, fight fight you for you. Yes, you know, I mean fight for you. And that again that. I don't know what that looks like. It's gonna change. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it doesn't mean that I'm solely responsible for you, but it means like, I'm gonna be there when you need me. And sometimes you need me to hold you sometimes I gotta punch you in the face. Like I don't I don't know, man. It's it's a fluid. It's a fluid. I think it's a it's a moment by moment or situation by situation basis. So and I think That's that's an important point you bring up because I think a lot of people if they were approached about something they the first thing would be like, I don't know how to handle this. Well, they don't either. Yeah. And are you willing to try anyway? Right? And that's what's important. And 100% of the cases are going to be messy. Yes. And messy isn't like, oh, man, I spilled a cup. My basil, let me clean it off my coffee table. It's like, oh, no, I'm sorry. So I burned down half of your house. You still cool? Are we still cool? That's what messy is. It's human messy. Right? It's really human problems. It's i You are risking me ruining your life in some way. Like, that's what he what is the soul and, like, of another person worth it? You know what I mean? And it's tough man, because there's a fine line between that and trying to be somebody's savior. And I think again, if you're present in, in authentic prayer, reading the scriptures, and you have a good, gospel centered community around you, if you're that person, like helping somebody out of addiction, I think you need that as well. But that's a fine line. That's a whole different podcast, for sure. But that's a fine line. You got you got to be very weary of that because you can't say nobody. But yeah, man, I think it's I think it's gonna be messy. But I think Man, I think I think I think a healthy church should be messy, messy on the edges. I don't know honestly, what I would tell somebody with that. Outside of. Yeah, that was good. I don't think there's a black and white answer. Yeah, you're gonna have to live in the gray with it. And, and how you respond to Yeah, so I think that was great. Spence, I think you've encouraged a lot of people, myself, included. I obviously can't speak for other people right now, because they aren't hearing this. Until they hear it. Okay. Ooh, hey, don't do it to them. So don't do it. ain't ready. Are you ready for the time warp? Some work. Good thing. We have a God outside of time. Hey, oh, she goes. What just happened to my voice? Things are getting wild. We need to turn this off. Okay. Thanks for being part of the accidentally potential podcast, for sure having you back. We literally just said in this three different times. That's a separate podcast. Yeah. So I guess we got to do. Yeah. All right, you got my number. Don't say I didn't warn you on that one. I truly hope you guys found that is challenging. And encouraging. As I did, if you want to give Spencer a follow on Instagram, his Instagram is I am Spencer tail. And there you can check out all of his adventures, all of his projects, and also his company's strangely dim production house with just photography, videography, and literally anything ever creative. Trust me, it's insane, you need to check out his work for yourself. Let's hit some of the takeaways. Number one, you cannot remove something without replacing it. If you take what you are dependent on out, then you need to replace it with something healthy. Number two, unhealthy dependencies and healthy lifestyles are built the same way there has to be active disciplines involved, for instance, we could actively be pursuing the wrong thing. So in the same vein, we would need to actively pursue the right things to eliminate the former. If we have a focused mindset on strategy on how to actively pursue things, we will be able to change direction, a good question to ask ourselves is What can I control to make sure that I'm steering the ship in the right direction. Number three, get people around you who want to see you when encouragement is another form of accountability. Number four, finding a community with Healthy People is key. And I love how Spencer identified what healthy is defined as and he said that if you're interfaith then using prayer and Scripture will be your litmus test to discover what healthy looks like and that they all have to work hand in hand. Number five, oh, this was so good. Nothing is neutral. You choosing to do one thing means that you are choosing not to do something else. If we aren't intentional with every movement, then we could wake up 10 years from now and wonder why we're still in the same place church number six. And this is where Spencer got emotional. Do not give up on people, the result of how you love someone could transform the entire trajectory of their life, we get the opportunity to show unconditional love to others. And maybe that includes people who have never experienced it before. Number seven was a challenge question. And that was when Spencer asked what do you stand for? Because if you know what you stand for, then we just need to focus on aligning our actions so that they lead back and point back to that. And honestly this was the moment for me that I think was the mic drop and it was one of his final points was when he said when you start taking your faith see Seriously, you start allowing it to influence your character, your motivation and your actions. And then this beautiful picture you painted at the end when he said, everyone has their own throne internally, and whoever sits there calls the shots. So when you start to take your faith seriously, you have to get out of the chair. Oh my gosh, was that a call to action for me? To really think every single day? Am I getting out of the chair today? And am I focusing on letting the Lord guide my steps? The next one's going to be a fun one another deep conversation, of course, where I speak to a friend about ghosting culture and unmet expectations. So you're gonna want to stay tuned for that. But let's get back to today's episode because I of course, want to know what some of your takeaways were. But first, I have one question. Was there someone that came to mind as you were listening to this episode? Because if so, please share it with them. We're so passionate about this message, and we want to give value to the people that would benefit from it. We drop a new episode every other Thursday, so be sure to subscribe to get the latest conversations. Oh, and one more thing. If you enjoy this episode, and this podcast, I would be so honored. If you would leave a review. It helps us to better connect with the intended audience of this podcast by doing so. And I truly am so grateful for any amount of time that you choose to spend with me because trust me, I know how many options are out there and I do not take it for granted. Seriously, I just wow I just really appreciate you and take I may not know your name yet, but let's change that connect with me on Instagram at XO Asher, or on Twitter at combos with xo. But hey, even if I don't know your name yet, what I do know for certain is that you're amazing. I love you. You have something that the world needs and you are always more than enough. So hey, we'll see you next time on The accidentally intentional podcast.