Today I've brought my friend Matt leech onto the podcast because well, the two of us have learned together from firsthand experience that the topic we are addressing today is one that a lot of people have questions about, but never really feel comfortable sharing. You see, my friend Matt Leach and I have attended the same church and decided two years ago, we wanted to start a small group for singles only. So it was called the singles only small group. And our goal and our tactic was to be able to create a space for people to ask hard questions, ask weird questions, and create a safe space where people can feel like they can open up and hopefully in turn, find their community, find their tribe, build friendships, etc. So we're here today and we're unpacking our personal experiences we've had as well as reflecting upon our season as small group leaders and what we were able to witness firsthand and my friend Matt leach is amazing. He's the perfect person for this because he loves people so deeply. He actually just accepted a job as an online community pastor for Life Center Church, so you will be doing exactly this building community. I hope you guys are ready. Here we go. All right. What's up guys? Welcome to another accidentally intentional podcast. I brought my guy. Matt leach here today. How's it going? I feel like my my best low guy Aussie is gonna be upset that I called you my guy. Because I call her every guy friend. My guy. Shout out Aussie. Shout out to Aussie. I'm gonna throw a picture of Aussie right here. Yeah. Great. Cool. Perfect. So, Matt, today, you are our special guests. Because we're talking about how to find and build community, which basically is just like, how do I find my group? Yep. How do I find my people? People? Yep, exactly. Because after college adulting and finding friends is just a jungle. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, this is fun for us. Because I don't know what background zoom may or may not have given but this is this is fun. Because we actually started a small group kind of based on this idea based on this topic. That's right. A couple years ago, year and a half. Yeah. Yeah. Small group of in church. We zo came to me with this idea. It's fun idea. And she was like, Matt, what if we create our own small group for people who feel like they don't have community? They're not in relationship? Because right churches are like, Oh, cool. I found my person. Yeah, significant other, whatever. So we, what if we created a group of people who are in a season of singleness, looking for people who are also in a season season of singleness. And they don't necessarily want a significant other, but they just want community and they want people to do life with so yeah, because I wanted to find a group for people who were like overlooked. Yeah. Right. And, and we've had episodes in the past, if you haven't checked them out my two episodes with Lew Phillips on singleness, if you're single, and you struggling right now, but anyways, so we wanted to start this group. Basically, we were just like, what's one group, we can hit? Singles? Like we were both at the time. Matt is now in gay spoiler alert, not from our group. Unfortunately, it did not work like a dating pool, as I hope no. But yeah, so it was a really cool experiment. For us. It was because maybe this could be similar to your experience as a listener, but small groups or Bible studies at church sometimes. how it's been for me in the past, is very forced, I guess, is the word I would use, where people are just like, This is what we're going to talk about today. We're going to read this. And then we have prepared questions that were pre scripted. And I was just like, No, we got to throw that out the window in our group. So we came up with this pretty fun idea of doing the singles only small group, where we would take a podcast episode. Yep. Over a conversation topic. Yep. And literally, open the conversation topic up to our group as a result, so it was just like a springboard. And man, the conversations that happened? Yeah. Which is amazing. It just took off kind of, I mean, in the it's funny that you say that, like past groups feel forced, because it's actually that was kind of, I think, a couple of the first comments that people in our group said they're like, Yeah, you know, community is just felt forced for me, or, you know, it's just feels like, we're just trying to have this awkward conversation about like this, your list of typical stereotypical questions in your head. And we immediately kind of tried to break those walls and just be like, well, that's not what this group is gonna be. So it kind of went all these different ways, which I think was so fun, the most enjoyable aspect. And that was the thing, right is because we wanted everyone in the group to pick a topic. Yeah. And the rule was pick a topic that you wish the church would talk about, but never does. Yep. So so our first topic as a small group was this exact thing, how to find and build community right? And I think the first three questions which Matt and I did not prepare for group were just like, whatever we're just gonna be. We're just gonna have a conversation and hope people enjoy it, but the first Three questions that were asked was one, has anyone ever felt hurt by somebody in a church building before? Yeah, everyone raised their hand, no question to one or two, if you're honest with yourself, do you think you could have been the cause of someone else's pain in the church? Everyone raised their hand. And it was so eye opening. And then the third question was really where I think it sealed the deal for the group is because I said, if you think you're awkward meeting someone for the first time, raise your hand, every day, hands went up. And it was just like, okay, exhale. Yeah, we're all on equal standing here. Yes. Hard for everybody. Yes, exactly. I love that you said it's hard, because that was when we tried to really, you know, stress and say, like, Yeah, this is messy. I think, you know, not to get too deep into it. But for me personally, and I think same for you is, it has always been messy, especially when you try to get close with someone or the group of people. And it were human beings. So we're naturally going to do things that, you know, mistakenly hurt the other person or hurt a couple other people. And so we might not try to, or it might happen to us. But that was probably the most important thing. And so we're like, okay, we're all in this same situation, or we've been in similar situations in the past. So it really opened up the group. That was a lot of fun. Yeah. And part of the messiness is right, that we all have two innate desires and is to be fully known and fully loved. But at the same time, what a terrifying amount of walls you have to break through to get to that place with another person. Yeah, you are risking heartbreak, pain, betrayal, rejection, you name it. Yes. That fear. I feel like just totally dominates takes over. Yeah. What about for you? I think, you know, if you don't have to get too personal, if you don't want to, but for us, has there been? Has there been like a an interesting, you know, I guess, like, what has been your biggest fear in opening up being vulnerable? Because it's tough. And you do have to decide, okay, I'm gonna decide to be vulnerable. I'm gonna decide to be open with these people with this person. Yeah, what does that look like for you? I don't know. Yeah. Well, I think it was this whole concept in college for me, which if you listen to the intro, trailer episode of this podcast, I kind of talked briefly about this. But when I was in college, I reached a point where I had no friends. And so I had to come to a decision. What am I going to do to fix this? Yeah. And it was his whole mindset, my mind sweat switch. When I said, switch? Yes. Where I basically concluded, okay, what kind of a friend do I want in my life? Yeah, someone who is willing to share someone who wants to be encouraged and will encourage me. And so I basically made a mental note of all of these characteristics. And I was like, I have to be that friend first. Yeah. And it's so it was a lot easier when I was like, it's not an agenda. But I want to first be that person so that other people feel feel that the pressure is off them. Right. And so it would be vulnerable, even in the sense of sharing your dreams with another person. Yeah. Like in college. My dream was I'm going to move to LA and be in the film industry in some capacity. Yeah, like done deal. It's not even a question. Yeah. So. So like, when I graduated, people were like, Oh, I'm glad you're gonna go to Hollywood. But even just sharing any part of yourself can feel vulnerable. And I think it was just forcing myself to break that wall and get to that uncomfortable place. But this magical thing happened. Because when you were the first person to be vulnerable in a one on one situation is what I'm talking about. Yeah, specifically. Yeah. Very rarely will someone not return the quote unquote, favor and be vulnerable themselves? It's really good. Yeah. Because it's just like you can you realize, oh, my gosh, wait, this person is trusting me. What an honor. Yes, I want to trust them. Right. You know, yeah. So it was this cool experience. So yeah, that's really cool. Yeah. And honestly, for those of you watching, I mean, Joe, was I never told you this, but you're kinda one of those people. For me. I've struggled with that. A little bit more postgrad? Honestly, because you had my people who you think are your people for a while, and some of them still aren't. They're awesome. Awesome, guys. But yeah, kind of post grad, I was, you know, in masters, you know, suddenly get my MBA and I had this whole mindset of like, okay, I think I like, you know, some of it, some of it healthy, but I kind of definitely took it to an unhealthy place of like, alright, this is just a lonely season for me, I gotta grind, you know, I have to, like, you know, just put my head to, like, you know, whatever that analogy is like, stone. Yeah. And just figure it out and do life on my own. It's gonna be a tough a year and a half or two, two years. And yeah, just figure it out. And like, after that, you know, then I'll kind of set up my life, but it's like, I found out quickly, I'm like, I'm not going to survive these two years if like, that's what my lifestyle is gonna look like. And it was a hard it was just a hard struggle, at least probably for the first year plus or a little less than a year. Yeah. And that's honestly kind of what made me well I was forced to open up to people and I was forced to go find community at a church. Luckily, this awesome church, they're still out now. But yeah, I think that's, that's really what forced me and pushed me to be like, okay, Matt, you're gonna have just like you said, gonna have to make it happen on your own. And you're gonna have to force yourself to be open with others. Now, out of that came so many great relationships. So that was kind of my my personal fears. But that's awesome that you say that? Because it's like, no one really else is gonna make it happen. But you so yeah, it's this whole, this whole shift in someone's mind, right? Is being like, Oh, well, that's so uncomfortable. I would venture to ask right now, how comfortable are you really? Because if you keep thinking about it so much, and how you want to change, you're probably uncomfortable as it is. Yeah. So Right. So really, it's uncomfort versus uncomfort. or discomfort. Just speak normally. Yeah, that's it and but made man it makes a world of a difference. Yes, for sure. I think yeah, I think people also realize that in the small, small group that we kind of had to, it's really fun. And it's been amazing to see people open up. And also, for those of you haven't watched the dreams, one with Amy, shout out, Amy. She's awesome. Those are most recent one, but it kind of opened up people in the group to talk about their dreams to talk about, like, have wanted to pursue this. And I and immediately what I thought since it's so definitely, like big on my heart, I think for sure to like to have community to be in relationship with others is that we're able to rally around those people, I think of a couple of people specifically who you've gotten close with a couple of the girls in the small group who really was like, you know, this has been on my heart and, and you really encourage them and other girls have encouraged, you know, those people within that group to pursue that or, or to encourage along the way in their life journey or challenge them or push them in their life journey. I think that only happens in community and in relationship. Yeah, it's been, you know, the best. Yeah, the best part of it. So yes. All right. Now I got a lot of questions that just came July. Let's go. Okay. So let's say someone's at the point, we're gonna give a lot of different scenarios here. Go for it. Someone's at the point where they're like, Okay, I'm ready to make friends. But literally, what do I say? Yeah, like, I'm like, Hi, my name is zo. Then what? Yeah. What's worked for you, Matt? That's good. Um, yeah, I think a big one for me is I tried to when I approach someone, and it's totally just brand new like that. It's been I tried to pick something out, you know about them. I asked necessarily, how they're doing maybe how their day is how their week is not to try to come off too strong. But also know that hey, I'm actually interested in I'm engaging with you. Because I think a lot of people, especially with, you know, the growing technology and day and age and society that we're in, is like, there's a couple quick, generic questions that we can or cannot ask, you know, someone specifically just being like, oh, okay, like Good to see you. Keep it moving. Yeah, so often so quick, and people aren't even disrespected by it. They just think that's the norm. But I think, deep down if people are honest with themselves, they want to feel like you seem like you said, seen known, yeah, loved, especially just seen and heard almost, I would add her to that as well. Yeah. Because they just want to, you know, they want someone to actually be interested in their life and what's going on and how their soul is how they're actually doing. Yes. And so when that when those kinds of questions are asked towards though I think then they're a little bit caught off guard, but also been like, oh, wow, this is different. This person's actually genuinely interested. Yeah, that was kind of a shift for me. Probably. Yeah. And I like what you said is you didn't ask, Hey, you don't say hey, I'm Matt. Nice to meet you. How you doing? You're asking how is your debt? Your ask me specific things that require more than a good bad? Yes. No answer. Yes. To just pull something out of people. Yeah. So what what's your format for doing that? Are you like someone who's just like, oh, I met you? Oh, let's let's grab a drink. Let's grab coffee sooner? Yeah. Yeah. Usually like coffee or something like that? Or depending on how they kind of answered I'd say like, throughout the month, what their day to day schedule looks like week to week schedule. Looks like that'll kind of follow like, Okay, you're free in the evenings. Oh, okay. Like, or like early afternoon, whatever, like, let's do this, based on their time of day probably will, like determine if it's lunch or if it's dinner, or if it's coffee or something like that. Yeah, that's probably my go to what's yours? No, I would agree. And I I'm thinking about how Starbucks just came to be in the 90s. How would we function as people without having coffee shops to sit down and write? Yeah, so I would say I would say mine similar. I mean, I think we both can say we thrive in one on one conversations. Yeah, for sure. And it is impossible for me personally, to get to know anybody in a group setting. Gotcha. Interesting. Yeah. Because I want full attention on Yes, that's great. And I agree with that. I was actually just talking to someone else about it last week. It's a great that's such a great point. You definitely have to shift your mind a little bit if it's like a group setting. And for those people if you're watching like if you're like us where you're just like okay one on one is the best joint time I can really get to know people everything else if I'm just discouraged because I see I feel overlooked or or not heard or seen in a group setting. I would try to say don't get discouraged. Just because it's a different mindset where it's like you can only go so deep right can only go so deep in a group setting or It's like, you're really, you know, it's just a different environment where it's like, okay, you know, we're catching up on the game that's on and we're talking about this event that just happened that we came from or something like that. Yeah. So I'd say maybe adjust expectations, and those those settings, those environments, because I've, I've had the same experiences where it's like, oh, man, I really wanted to connect with this person at this group. But there were 12 people there. And it's like, that wasn't happening, because it was four conversations going on. Yes. So and that's not to say the group settings are bad. That's gonna be the perfect springboard. We're like, Oh, I was catching a friend, like a vibe with this person. Let's pull it outside. Perfect. Get to know each other one number as you're leaving, shooting, shoot a text, whatever, like, Yeah, let's finish up that conversation. Yeah, that's good. And that can be scary for some people too. But like, totally what's the worst that can happen? They say no. Okay. Right. Yeah, just move on. Right. There's simply there's more than three people in the world. Yep. And not only you, but there's a couple other people who have helped helped me in that because I have definitely and, and sometimes being honest, still struggle with that. I'm just like, oh, man, like I wanted to whatever. Like if someone says no worse, or a friendship relationship doesn't go as you know, I thought it was gonna go deeper as I guess, as deep as I thought it was gonna go. Yeah, Taylor. Hi. We just mentioned this on Ozzy earlier, gave me some great advice months back where he was just like, so like, doesn't work out, like, try someone else. Like, go for it with someone else. You know, I mean, and you said the same thing. I mean, some other people have where it's just like, okay, cool. Like, pick the people who you want to pursue to be friends with and and pursue it. And it's like, and if it doesn't kind of happen, like, give it some time, but also just like, that's okay. It's not the end of the world kind of kind of type deal. So that yeah, really made me feel like yeah, like, what's this worst thing that could happen? Yeah, totally. And it's all this concept of if you want to feel valued, make someone else feel valuable. It's great. That's really good. Yours is is start small, and then you go deeper. Yeah. I'm someone who kind of takes the like, like, catch up. Yeah, so like one of the first questions I would ask someone while we're, you know, this. Well, when we get coffee together is I'll I'll just be like, Yeah, so like, Well, yeah, life, tell me what you're doing. And then so I will transition from What job do you do to do you enjoy that job? Yes. No. Okay. What is your biggest passion? What is your biggest dream job? And all of a sudden they light up? They're like, wow, because we just got them thinking about what the future can be. Yeah. Wait, me, myself. And I, we just worked as a team. Yeah. But no, it's great. Yeah. So we have two different approaches. But yeah, but I just really want to ask people questions that I would want to be asked. Yeah. So that they realize, hey, this is this is different. And this is also comforting. Yep. Exactly. I think that's really cool that you ask people that also, because it allows them to dig deep in the heart and then also have like, okay, cool. I can kind of like, you know, these conversations like, wow, really makes me actually think, you know, I mean, even like, the questions that I asked, I think people can still be like, Oh, it was fine. Yeah, there was good weeks. Good. I do this, you know, it's finally got, but that definitely makes them think and pull some stuff out of them, which is awesome. is the best. And I think another interesting part that I've learned is body language over the years. Yeah. In conversations. Could you ever been in a conversation with someone where they feel creepy? Yes. And you're and you just don't know why. Right. But there's something about him that you're just like, I'm unsettled. Totally. In sometimes I've even thought and what I thought you're gonna say sometimes they've told no, no, no, not at all. Not. But some, there's some people who have got coffee within, like, you know, the guy just like might be looking at the ground. Or you might just be like, posture just certain way where I kind of think that I'm like, it's kind of weird vibes, like vibes, but it's just actually just how they are and how they operate little bit more. And so I'm just like, okay, just, it's different, for sure. But it's not necessarily like a bad thing. It had to be a thing that I just do, because immediately I'm just like, this is, this is crazy, but it's not, it's not and then also, they become more comfortable. So I think it's just a process of like comfortability, because also, I'd say that for going back to our small group that we had, it was it was a process of people getting comfortable. Oh, everybody came in with their shoulders up to their ears. Yeah. So yeah, the creepiness can sometimes just be like, they're a little bit not sure at first and then they get more comfortable. Yeah. And I think the thing is, authenticity is key, right? Huge, because we're the generation that wants to hide everything yet can sniff it out when it's not authentic. Yeah, so it's like we got to make it parallel. Yeah, we got to let our yes be yes. Okay, great. So, bring Authenticity back. Yes. We needed more of it. I was gonna say bring sexy back and then combine that with authentic data didn't work. Yeah. Okay. Well, I was gonna say make on authenticity a sexy back. That's weird. I'm keeping this in the podcast so people know what I'm actually like, typical though, to keep this in this awkward moment. And oh, my gosh, we should show them the photo for our singles only small garage. Maybe we'll toss it up here or something. I don't know. Right there. Yeah, somewhere. Yeah. Okay, perfect. Yeah, cuz it's ridiculous. If you're on the podcast, and you don't get to see these photos. Yeah. I just have to check it out on YouTube. That's right. So body language. Right. And you mentioned important thing about make eye contact. Yeah, I got to make someone feels so important. And if it's uncomfortable to them, that's okay. Yeah, but don't let that stop you. Yeah, exactly. Because I've actually yeah, it's such a good point, because I've had times where they are uncomfortable. But then I'm obviously you're not death staring. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. That it's weird. But the fact that you kind of keep the eye contact, they're like, okay, this person. Because, again, because we're just like, man, it's tough. If you guys have ever you ever been in these, like, where you're just like, someone checking their phone, you're just like, struggle with honestly all like a lot of people. And that's probably me. We're reading way too into it. But like, that's a huge thing where I'm just like, not a fan. No, I feel that too. Because quality time is huge. Yeah. So we're giving people some actionable takeaways are here. Totally eye contact. You put your phone, here's what I do with my Oh, it's right. I take my phone, I put it facedown, perfect on the table. So I cannot be distracted. Seeing any notifications. Yeah. Or I can just have it in my pocket as like, you know, even better, even smarter. I'm not even gonna break it. Like break it out. Girls pockets are shorter. So we can't throw it out there. But I could put it in my backpack first. I would say don't cross your arms when you're talking to a kid. Yeah. That just makes me feel like you are closed off what I'm saying. Right? Because your body's telling me the same. Yes. And if there's an uncomfortable aspect in that, where it's like, oh, I have to do something with my arms, though. Okay, grab some food, grab a drink. Something like that. Just that's fine. Spin that cup. At Starbucks. Right, right. Oh, my gosh. And and I would say even like little things like, put your whole body seated forward. Yeah. Like your legs hanging off the side. Were just like, you know, unless it's someone like your best friend. And you're, of course, you're so chill at that point. That's right. In that case. Those are good. These are actionable tips. I like That's right. We got to help the people have to find the community. Yeah. So that's good. So we addressed that. What do you say? Okay, what about this one? What if someone has tried to be vulnerable with another person before and not even necessarily vulnerable? They're just like, I was trying to get deep and they didn't care. Yeah. And they're feeling a little defeated. Like, they're just like, they didn't care. It wasn't received. They're like, cool. Thanks for sharing, or didn't even say thanks for sharing. Okay, what what would you do in that instance? Man, that's great. That's really good. I think that almost goes back to a little bit of like, what I just mentioned about the phone, like, cuz I've been probably one or two instances where I am like, feeling like I'm pouring my heart out and person is just, you know, a little bit busy or, you know, preoccupied, whatever, whatever with their phone. I'm just like, man, they just don't care. They're like, don't give me the time of day or like, and I've also thought, this is definitely as I think grown up grown a little older, but I've been like, okay, like, this is just not the best time for them. And that's where I do wish that that person would say that, at first man. Like, that was that was hard. I'm like, oh, this person just isn't feeling it at all. So it's so hard not to feel defeated and discouraged and leave that being like, I was so pumped to, like, actually get to know them. And it was just totally fell flat. That was gotten nothing from them got nothing out of that. That's, that's hard. It's definitely hard. And I can't say that that's not going to happen a couple times, because it absolutely is. Or if we're being honest with ourselves of like, had other instances scenarios conversation because other people were aware of that person. And so, you know, I think we just have to keep that in mind of being like, people are gonna let you down. But at the, like, at the end of the day, like you, you still absolutely need, you know, community. And there's, I just finished this book, I gotta plug it. It's called. It's called the power of the other by Henry Cloud. It's so good. It's Dr. Henry Cloud, or Henry Cloud, my bad. But it's, it's all about relationships, and how important relationships are and kind of ties in leadership. But how it's actually scientific of how much our body craves connection our brains can get and should be rewired. Thanks to relationship and thanks to connection looks like we're constantly searching for connection. So I won't dive into it too much. But it's, yeah, highly recommend. Crazy good read. I'll put the link in the bio. Yes, bio. I'll put the link in the description. Description. And what about you? What is your kind of experiences with that? Maybe you don't? Yeah. Oh, no. So I definitely have experience with that. One thing I want to pull out of yours. Yes. Is that you said you wish they had just told you if it wasn't a good time? Yes. That's good. Being honest, is always the right thing to do. Like I was, this is what I talked about in the ghosting episode, right? But it's like, don't say yes to someone because you're not making anything better. Right? You are not helping anyone's feelings if you're only going to be half present zero present. For sure. Emotionally But your body happens to be president. Especially if it could be a great awesome connection between to you, as a friend friends down the road or whatever it is, it's like, and he could have missed out on a or you did miss out on a great opportunity just because you didn't tell him. This isn't the greatest time I only have 15 minutes and I gotta rush to do this errand or whatever it is. Yeah, agreed. Just be honest, transparent. So we definitely need more of that. And then we could go so many ways we could go down that rabbit hole with honesty and, and yeah, truthfulness. But yeah, for me. I've had a couple instances over the years, probably 15 or 20. Okay. Yeah. Which is pretty large amount. Yep. Where the conversation also quick side note, xo is the person who will do that and seek out these these conversations, these relationships. So that also don't feel like discouraged if you're like, wow. Okay, sorry. Yeah. Is they were like dud conversations, where I think they thought I was coming to interview them. Gotcha. Like, I'll never forget, there was just one conversation in college. This guy literally, would answer my questions and sit there in silence and stare at me. It's part of life. Yeah, it's tough. Like, just say no. Next time. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Geez. Yeah. But you know how, maybe if you don't, but if you have done sales at any point in your life, they always say, the more calls you make, the more sales you're gonna get Sure. It's just a real, right. So if you're out there grinding and making 100 Plus calls a day, your chances go up of success, because you are getting so much more practice. So when I say I've had like, 20 really bad, awful episodes of conversations that were just like, that wasn't a conversation. It was an interview. Yeah. I've had 200 more. Yeah, that were amazing. Right. Exactly. And so it's all a ratio. Yeah. So yeah, good point. Of course, don't be discouraged by that. Yeah. I mean, for sure. If you can go in with a mentality of like, yeah, one in 10 might not be the best. Isn't that doesn't that give you more confidence? You got to do 10. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's, that's, that's what I would say right there. Make a numerical goal. Okay, this is what I didn't call it not have how many friends you want? Oh, just how many? How many conversations you want to have what's great. Yeah, so Yeah, mine when I was in college, because I was on a wild story. Campaign almost plugged it earlier. I almost brought it up earlier. Yeah, I decided I want to eat a meal with someone different every single day. Yeah. And get to know their story. It's nuts. And I, I ended up doing it from sophomore year all the way through graduations and got over 250 meal dates with 250 different people. So Wow. Yeah. But it's such an incredible experience. Because that right, yeah. So that's, that's an important piece of it is because I made a goal. So now today, especially because I'm busy. You know, I'm a podcast are now going on? That's right. I don't know why my voice changed. But so I will make it a goal to get a meal with one different person every week or something like that. It's great. Yeah. And that can be whatever you want. But, but there's a good mental preparation that happens when you write it down. Yeah. Right. Because then you're like, Okay, I have committed here I am committing to it. And then you have to take them on, because then you're really committed, right? Yes. And this is an important part two, people always say nobody ever asks me, do you know still to this day? I schedule 90% of my hangouts with people. I'm not deterred by it. That's great. I it's something I struggled with for a while to be honest. A while I'm like, I'm always the person reaching out. I can't do this. And like, really, by that point, like doing that with certain people, I would consider close friends. Yeah. And so to not get discouraged by that is definitely like, you know, something that's not easy. But also, bottom line is you shouldn't take offense by if you're that person. Right. That's awesome that you do that? Because that was something I like, worked through for a while. It's like, Why am I always this person, but it's like, okay, that's not a bad thing at all. It doesn't mean that person values their time with you any less, could just be the dynamic that you guys created. Yeah. So it could be that you're making it a priority and not everyone else's. Yep. So some people don't know how to do it for wired differently. Totally. Yeah. Okay. That's a good segue. I have a great question. Let's go next. What? What about because I was kind of thinking about this, like leading up to it was like, man, okay, what like, which way do we want to go with community? What happens when people just kind of like, because I've been in this position where it's like, kind of take a step back after a while and you're just like, Man, I think I just have a bunch of bad relationships and friendships, like in my life, well, we need to define what bad is to you. Yeah, what's good or bad in your mind? It's great. Okay. I would say a lot of, they're not bringing out the best in you or they're not challenging you or you're not going back to how we kind of started able to be your most vulnerable and open self. And that's not an the most important part. I'd say So you're not giving and receiving in that, or so a lot of times you're giving, giving, giving, not receiving it back. So you're just kind of you're on MTL on shore, you're receiving it, but then you're not the one interested in any of that. I think that's probably the biggest key so bad, meaning, you're not able to be your most vulnerable, open, transparent self, and giving and receiving dynamic. Does that make sense? Yes. So what do you what have you done? What do you do? When you kind of find yourself and you're like, Man, this might be some not the best, not the greatest relationships and friendships that I'm in that I have could be professional can be personable personal. What are your thoughts? Yeah, I would say that I've learned the hard way on a lot of this by over committing and not having the capacity to be my best self with other people. So I would say that I don't think every friendship needs to hold 5050 dynamic of giving, receiving, okay, because there can be some relationships where you take more of a mentor role, right? Big Brother role, right? Where you're pouring way more than you're receiving, that's great, then there's gonna be people who mentor you that to you who are pouring way more into you and receiving, then there's the tight circle of best friends, which I would say where it's, you want that to be equal equal standing there, right? Yeah. So I think that if it was trial and error for me, because there would be I'm very much the type of person where if I'm going to invest in you, I'm going to very quickly be able to tell whether you actually want that or not. But it wasn't quick at first, I would pursue the wrong friendships. A lot of the time. I was like, No, but you're so cool. And I want to be so close to you. And look how much I care about you. And oh, sure. Sure. Just like chill the heck out like, don't wait too strong. Yeah, exactly. And it was, it was bad. Yeah. So that was not good moments in my life. But it taught me like, Okay, I need to, it's always better in my I don't think you can over communicate in relationships. Yeah, well, so even today, I have a very close circle. And I was just telling someone this the other day, and I said that I've had when it comes to numerical, because you know, how people care about the Look, dude are so popular is you have so many friends in college. Sure, once you're out in the real world, nobody cares. Yeah. So I'm like, I have maybe a handful of very close friends. I'm in constant communication with God, because I know my capacity nowadays. So I would rather be a whole lot to a very little group of people. Okay, then a little to a whole lot of Yeah, that's good. And I think that's been something I've had to work through. But really, you have to think about your capacity, from the standpoint of how much am I willing to commit to this friendship? Like, even down to like time amount? Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, if I have, if I have three best friends, do I have the capacity to add another, you know, something like that, okay, if you if you want to hang out with a best friend once a week, and this is just how mine, my mind works for a while. So I know, my court, I want to hang out at least once a week, okay, or once every other week. Okay, so outside of that, that's only leaving how many days? Right? So I gotta know, where am I able to definitely make sense to bring that in follow up question. Just maybe they, I guess touched on it already. But what if you're in a leadership role of some sort? Does that look different? You know, because, you so you made the point about being a lot to just a small group of people or a little too a lot. If you're in a leadership role, say of a business or of you know, something else that requires you to oversee a lot of people, you may have to appear as maybe a little to a lot of people. Yeah, what are your thoughts? I literally just popped in my mind. That's tricky, because that's easier in a lot of ways. Because you don't have to be committed for the long haul, per se. Yeah, you can have this drop in drop out kind of friendship. Yeah. And, and I don't love that. But sometimes that's just how the cards fall. Sure. So I think in that point, it's just making people feel as loved as possible while they're in your presence. Yeah. Like, I know, there's so many people that listen to this who are just like, I haven't talked to zone a year, Sam, you know, I'm ready for a good conversation with her when we do. Yeah, that's great. That's really great. That's with us. Yeah, we haven't talked for a couple months. Yep, exactly. Exactly. That's a great point. You haven't said about me? That was I love that. You'll love that. You mentioned that you're like I could not talk to her for a year or several months and just be like Wow, she's so engaged like when you guys are catching up? Yeah, me and Anthony are awesome like that totally agree are the best. That helps. I thought of that just because that's a problem. I mean, it is tricky for leaders Yeah. For pastors are whatever leadership role that looks like being CEO of a company. I'm just like, okay, like, I have to appear strong. I have to like appear that I care about people like all of these people. Yeah, no matter Big or small, but then also So I do want to be intentional with my relationships with them and how I manage them how I operate the company. So yeah, that's tricky. I think I would agree with you. I would agree. I'll just be like, you know, you hope that people understand the capacity that you're able to give to them and receive it. Well, it's a 30 minute conversation, whether it's a quick check in another week or month goes by or something like that. Yeah. So. And there will be times where I would just say like, Hey, I'm so sorry. I'm actually not. There's been people that recently who have asked me, they're like, hey, I want to hang out. Do you think we can hang out like every two weeks? And I was just like, I'm so sorry. I honestly don't have the time capacity right now. Like I would love to, I just can't Oh, yeah. And that's great. Because it goes kind of back to what we said about honesty, but and then all you can do is hope that they receive that Well, right now and that they know your character. Yeah. And like that, quote, I've mentioned in previous episodes, people can always accept and know, what they can't accept is a lack of response. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I want to go back to the whole good friend bad friend. Yeah. Right. Because we we're approaching it from a very black and white angle when true. People are not black and white. So good. Yeah. So I think some things for me that I have decided are important for me over the years, is I need people in my corner who can encourage me and hype me up. Okay. I'm a very high person. This should not be a surprise to anybody. But I want people up here with me when I'm up here. Yeah. Now when I'm down, you don't need to be down there with me. You just need to chill with me while I'm down there. And then we'll, we'll come back. Okay. Bring me there. Yeah, but people that also really want to know, my vision and my heart are such a gift. Because I mean, the conversations my best friend and I have like broken it, we will get as granular as, hey, I'm feeling this way right now. Before I tell you, Oh, here's what I'm what role I would like you to play. That's great. Wow, I don't want it fixed. I just want you to be with me. Yeah. Or maybe I don't want you to be with me. I want an ally and I want to fix it right now. You know. That's Wow, I love that. You said that. Yeah, that's great. And it's just so helpful. Yeah, but that's people who who know you, right? I've spent so much time Yeah, building that bond of trust with Yeah, which isn't everybody. But I think when it comes to, to help people always say like, you are like the five people you're closest with. And people are always like, well, I'm trying to be rich. So I'm gonna be friends or rich people. What is wrong with you? No, no, here's what you could become. If you hang with maybe the wrong group of five people, you could become manipulative, selfish, greedy. Yeah. self seeking, and get pulled away from the focus, which If faith is important to you, yep. You want people who are making it more important? Yes. To you, right. Yep. And I think that has been my personal guidepost to navigate it. Because what I would rather have is people who don't want to be stagnant ever and are so committed to growth personally, spiritually, emotionally, physically. It's great. Yeah. So growth mindset is big. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. What would you say? Yeah, that's man so much. First, I love that. You said that about what you and Brooke do. You were literally my fiance and I are in marriage counseling, Charlotte kills and Ally Johnson if you're watching, but they we probably covered this a couple months back had that exact conversation about like, you know, okay, like, you know, what are what type of arguments do you guys have? What are some like little Spats that you guys get into that maybe like, could become bigger things if you guys don't squash them or whatever? Yeah, we kind of got into that. And we landed there with them, you know, Kells, and Haley giving us that advice of like, okay, maybe figure out what rules you guys want to have before you vent to each other or talk to each other about a specific issue topic, something like that. Hey, you know, Madison, I need you to hear me out. Hey, Matt. Actually, I would love advice. I'd love feedback from you or something like that. So it's definitely helped. That's really good and not helpful. Nothing. I really that was kind of the first time I was like, well, it's it's super helpful to kind of like, No, this address this grow through it. But before that, I would just I think I would always be a guy where I'm like, Okay, well, I'm gonna be a helper, like, I'm just going to help this person. They want advice, right? They like need need my help. And yeah, and I'm gonna give it to them. But am I a lot of times friends, you know, similar to others. They might not want that. They might just want Okay, I just need you to hear me as a friend right now. Yeah, so that's really great. Yeah. And there's been times where it would be like, What do you want me to be right now? And the responses? I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, at least you asked. Yes. So now, no matter what, we are going to have to navigate together. Yeah. As pals like, what are we gonna do? As talk fiance's? Yeah, that's great. But to keep diving on that for me, I'd say I'd say similar love the growth mindset. Definitely getting in to faith more of like, okay, who makes sure it making sure guys are really challenging me in my faith and making sure that, you know, they're not letting me kind of slack of who God has called me to be like, Hey, man, like, I see this and this and you, and it could sound harsh sometimes, or it could be the most encouraging thing. Yes. I think I really appreciate that, that balance that back and forth of like, alright, Matt, like no, actually, like, this is where, you know, God's calling you to this man. Like, like, you know, you shouldn't be involved in this or like, make this decision. You know, it could be practical. It could be a lot of times it feels more practical. Yeah, for me so much. Definitely more faith based most fitness. Yes. Which when you tie this back in that feeds a first time conversation with someone? Yes. Because you're trying to figure out hey, yeah, is this is this someone they would want? Am I someone they would want in their life? Yeah. And vice versa? Yeah. You don't need to be like this. Jesus important. He'll Right. Right. Yeah. What we're trying to save you about your growth mine? Oh, my gosh, right. Yeah, please don't say any of them set me so weird. But what you can say is like, what's something that you've done in the past 12 months? That has challenged you more than any other year before? Yep. Just like questions like that where it makes me. I don't know. Or like, What has God taught you this past month? Specifically? You know? Yeah, that's great. I love having those questions. Because that's, I would I would want to talk about that with somebody. Yeah. You know, Yep, exactly. So when you when you reverse engineer a conversation, it's like, what would I want people to ask me? And what am I seeking in a friend? It's great. Yep. Unless, and I think the thing that just came to mind as well as like, unless, you know, kind of heading into it, maybe it's a person that you know, already know, heading into the first or second, whatever, it's a one on one Hangout, is that you understand already, this person may be reached out to you like, Hey, I'm going through it. So you know, I need some help. I just need someone to be there for me. So you may even understand or know more of, okay, this person needs me to just kind of hear him out and be there for him at this time. Rather than, you know, fire us fire off them questions of like getting to know type questions. Yes. You know, those that maybe that's type of an outlier. Building community, when first forming community, that person really might just, you know, they might have some trust in you, because they've heard from so and so that you're that type of person. So those can be some different instances. Just thought, oh, yeah, no, that's great. And I think it's also important to say here, and this has been something I have just been learning so much over the past year, is you cannot control someone else's. Anything. Their reaction, how they receive something so perfect example, someone is really lonely. Okay, great. Yeah. And so maybe they're like, oversharing, because they're just like, I just want to tell someone Yeah. And then, but then they're just like, I don't want to tell anyone because I don't want to be a burden. First off, you can't, you cannot decide or control how somebody receives that. Well, yeah. It's not up to you. Whether someone chooses that you're a burden or not. Yep. And that is that has been really freeing for me, but also very important in conversations as well, because really, the burden is only placed upon you when you decide to receive that from somebody else. Right. Like, I'm going to do a whole episode on the whole culture of offense. Okay. Right. And how right, that's a choice you're making. You're literally choosing to be offended. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And in that same breath, every, yes, you say is a series of how many knows? Along the way? And I think it's just an important mindset to have that it's not black and white. Yeah, you know, right. Biggest reminder probably out of that. Out of a lot of this. Yeah. It's not black and white at all. Yeah. It's very nuanced. Yeah. Because we're people. Yes. And we're all different people. Exactly. Yeah. So how can we figure out how to know each other better? Yeah. That's great. All right. Good. I was gonna say, I think it's interesting, because we're talking about community. Yeah. Really? We're focusing on one person at a time. Yes. But that's how it works exactly. Exactly. One person at a time. And yeah, and it's, I think, you know, a weird little dynamic as well. I think that a lot of people say like, you know, especially I don't know if it's our generation type deal, but you see a lot of it on social media recently where it's just like, can't take take care of others before you take care of yourself. First, I got to check yourself first, make sure like, you know, you're locked down if you need all the time in the world to just, you know, figure yourself out which there's some truth to that. No, yes. But I also would argue a little bit against that and say, the only way that you're going to get your fuel right like your gas tanks on like, your physical car, if your gas tank is on empty, you still have to take it to a gas station to somewhere to someone to get fuel, right. Yes. And then same thing with yourself. Absolutely. But here's a way to you know, take care of yourself is to receive love Come on, or ability from someone that's right, and just being like the presence of someone that you trust or putting yourself out there to get to know someone so I think that is part of the healing process are getting improving yourself getting yourself better. And on that on that quote that we saw a lot is like No, put yourself first. Yeah. Now it's one thing if every friendship you have you are the only one giving all the time. Yeah, those are not friends, baby. Those are legions. Not madly. Not me. No last name. But yeah, so yeah, well, you said one by one that's like the biggest and it sounds it could sound cliche, but it's it's really not because it's you being vulnerable and you being open to one by one people one by one. How do you eat an elephant? Yep. Tell him that. I forget actually what it is. It's one bite at a time, one bite at a time. I almost said one step at a time. And I was like, That makes no sense. We're gonna sing the Jordan sparks on Yeah. Well, how's that? One throwback clap, one friend at a time. But so we started the small group because we wanted to build those deep connections. Yeah. And I think the difference. According to a lot of people in the group, what they shared with us was that we fostered inability for everyone's voice to be heard and be very open. Yeah. Where they only needed to share their own experience. So it wasn't it wasn't question answer based things. Yeah, it was no, tell us about yourself. Yeah. Even if even if they disagreed, which happened all the time. I was just about to say that. Yeah, it was awesome. Because someone would share and then another person in the group would be like, well, actually, like, that's interesting. You say that, because I saw it this way. Or I've interpreted those situations, similar situations as X, Y, Z telling me about that, because that's interesting to me. So that's it. That's telling me about that. Yep. And it's, I think, the one looking back, one of the most important parts is what you mentioned already, is that we let them pick the topics, right. So they had control and also goes back to kind of what we mentioned of like, people want to feel heard and seen. Yes. When you give them that opportunity, and give others that opportunity. A lot of times, it's going to just happen organically. Absolutely. So and they always like business, like Jocko willing always says that. He said, once you have once you let the team create the plan, yeah, they take full ownership of it. Yep. Love that. That's awesome. But so in the same way, you can come up with the plan for your friendship, and then you can take full ownership of it right? Hey, oh, she always does this as his one liners or she just gets so like, it's classic. I think this was a great conversation. Yeah, yep. If people didn't get any takeaways from this. We would love to know, because that would be helpful or positive or better comment. And let us know some helpful tips that you're trying to get that engagement. Gotta have the engaging, engagement. Let's go. But real, but what actually, that'd be super helpful. And for people watching, right? It's like, if that's a struggle, or if you've had a ton of success being like, Oh, yep, people flocked to me, for whatever reason. Awesome. But why is that? No, I love that. I love that. If you have a specific question, if you're a guy if you feel more comfortable reaching out to Matt, you know, yeah, however you want to do it. Yeah. Or you put us in a group message. It's great. If you have very specific like nuances like I would love to, to give my best shot to help you out just having a different brain sometimes, because this is such a weird topic where people people don't want to admit like I'm having trouble. Yes, yes. Totally. Absolutely. Yes. In the last year that we fat. Yes. Exactly. That's huge. And that's like, Yeah, I hate that we keep not hate it. No, I don't. We love Yeah, we keep harping on it, but it's just true. It's like, okay, so just, yeah, reach out the fact that yeah, you're like, Hey, I'm having a hard time with this, or I'm having a hard time with Yes, yeah. But that's that's the first step. Do I dare you to reach out? Yes. Even if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Yeah. And going back to it. It's hard, right? Everything in life is hard, but it gets easier once you do it. So that's what so when I was just like, people don't like to admit when they're struggling or they need help. Yeah, I I was just like, No, I'm just gonna tell somebody. Yeah, right. I'm just like, shame. embarrassment. I don't care. It's worth me putting it out there if I can get get a solution. Yep. Because I'm solution minded. All right, that's like turn this off. Right now know it out. Alright, guys, but Well, I just love that conversation with Matt, what a great pal and what great fun. We had. And you know, as I was listening to the episode, I realized there was one piece that I actually didn't talk about, and I think it's important, so I'm going to share it with you because if you're someone who has a faith, and you love Jesus, here's something that I employed when I needed to make friends simply this I started asking God, alright, God, here's the deal. I want you to decide my friends from now on, because clearly I haven't done so well. So put the people who are supposed to be in my life in front of me and open the door for deep relationships. And let me tell you time and time again in fact, every single time I have prayed that God has answered with a yes, I will do that. Because I believe that God loves community because he himself is a community. Don't get me started. Okay, let's get some takeaways that came to mind. One, vulnerability is always a risk worth taking. It's an opportunity to give someone the gift of your trust to if you want to feel valued. First, make someone else feel valuable. Three, it's totally acceptable to tell people you know and love exactly what you need and how to help you is something I've found from my personal experience that most people are really excited to learn because otherwise they wouldn't have known. So they would be afraid that they were guessing the incorrect way to approach a certain situation, Matt, and I said at the end of the episode, but we really want to hear from you. In fact, I would want to make this a part too. So reach out to us. Tell us about certain scenarios, questions, crazy stories and experiences you've had. We want to hear it now. You can reach out to me XO, Asher, or accidentally intentional on Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to chat and talk about friendships together. Here's the caveat. Matt doesn't actually have an Instagram. But he said, you can email him to mp dot leech, nine five@gmail.com. And I'm putting it in the description below. Yes, you can laugh at him. I'm laughing at him. Because what the heck, Matt, people are trying to reach out to you. And we got to send them to Gmail. Welcome back to 2005. Matt actually confessed to me when we were recording this episode that he doesn't actually listen to this final part of the podcast. So this is where I could get away with whatever I wanted to say about him. But honestly, he's the best. I'm so excited for him and his future and his wedding coming up this summer. Let's go guys, at the end of the day, know that you are so loved. We are here for you. We are in this together. And I hope this week is filled with meaningful conversations in your life. And if you enjoyed this episode, and you want to learn the other side of the coin on how to become an intentional friend, then hey, I think you're really going to like this conversation. I have it with my best friend and we go right into it. So click on that one, and I'll see you in the next video.