This is the accidentally intentional podcast. I'm your host Joe. I hate small talk, and I'm ready to have meaningful conversations that build us. Let's go. I think that this is the most important conversation we have had on the podcast today. But before I say anything else, I do want to give a warning that in the second half of this episode, we do briefly discuss suicidal ideation, which may be triggering. For some and as a warning to parents, please use discretion, as the second half of this conversation may not be suitable for little ears. This conversation is for those who are personally struggling with anxiety and or depression, but also for people who know and deeply care about someone else who is struggling with anxiety and or depression and just wants to know how they can best walk alongside that person in the journey. Trust me when I say this is an episode where you're absolutely going to want to take notes. It is a rich conversation and we cover a lot of ground and I'm honored I get to discuss it with a true experts in the field. Dr. John Maloney is a mental health expert with not one but two PhDs, one in counselor education and supervision and the second in higher education administration from Texas Tech University. Prior to joining Ramsey solutions in 2020, John worked as a senior leader, professor and researcher at multiple universities. He also spent two decades in Crisis Response walking alongside people in their severe trauma. Now as a Ramzi personality, he teaches on relationships and emotional wellness. And he is one of my favorite follows on social media where you can find him at John Maloney on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and of course, at his website, John delaney.com. If you got to listen to the previous episode about how to build relational wealth, I share a story about how I was invited to a Ramsey influencer event back in November, which is where I got to meet and reconnect with Dr. John. So I am just absolutely honored. He is here today to share all of his knowledge and wisdom with us so that we can in turn become better friends, and even more emotionally well in our own lives. So let's hit it. Here is my conversation with Dr. John Delaney. My friends, welcome back to another accidentally intentional podcast episode. And today I am thrilled to present to all of you my new friend, Dr. John Maloney, who refuses to call me by my real name, XO, but it says calls me Zoe. So we're working on it, we may need some therapy for our friendship, which is actually kind of what we're talking about today. Dr. John, you said we're new friends, I thought we've been friends for ages. Well, news, a relative term, I guess, to some people. So whatever you feel most comfortable with, you know, I just want to do with all of you. Exactly. Here's what I want to talk about with you today. And it is how to be a friend to somebody that's struggling with anxiety or depression. Because I have lots of questions about this. And it's, it seems like it's almost a taboo subject. But I know there's more behind it. There's more nuance behind it. So I want to just unpack it with the man of the hour today. And before I say anything else, I just want everybody to know that not only is Dr. John Maloney super brilliant, although who refuse to admit that he has the I'm addicted to your podcast, like I binge every episode on a 2x speed. There's only like 25 people who listen to this show. So I've mentioned you've been once you listen to it at 2x. Yeah. So I, a few people have written in to me and said, hey, just so you know, you're the only podcast. I listened to it one next because you talk so fast. I can't absorb it into x. Yeah, I need full auctioneer mode all the time. That's a lot. It just regular speed. I can't imagine. I'm going to try it once. Oh, do it. Yeah, it'll be riveting. But yeah, I'm obsessed with the show, because I feel like I'm learning so much all the time. And then you have this book called redefining anxiety, which ties everything perfectly in together. before we've even asked one question to you. Before we even ask one question. Yes. Well, thank you. We being me, myself and I here today. And the unfortunate souls that have us in their ears. In the latest podcast episode I listened to of yours, you said, quote, I've made it my life's mission to have no unspoken conversations at the end of my life. And that actually really hit me because that's kind of one of the goals of this podcast is to build obviously, relational wealth, but you have to go in the trenches with people. And so I kind of want you to tee up because I love how you define anxiety. It's the first definition I've ever heard that makes sense and explaining what the body is actually doing. So can you for the listeners, first off, explain what anxiety is all Anxiety is is your body's alarm system, letting you know that you're either out of balance with your relationships or disconnected from people around you, which is an ancient thing, right? If you woke up 2000 years ago and your tribe had moved on without you, you're probably going to die. So your brains got a signaling system that says, hey, we're not okay. And, or it's a, it's a signal letting you know, it's an alarm bell, letting you know that you're in a situation where you don't have any autonomy or control over what tomorrow may look like. So if you owe somebody money, if you are in an abusive relationship, and somebody is dictating like, you have to go to work, because you, then your brain is going to let set off signals saying, Hey, we're not in control of the of the road we're on. And then the third one is a safety, right? That goes back to the abuse thing. If you're in a in a relationships or situations where you're not safe, then your body is going to have signals that let you know, hey, you're not safe, you're not connected, you're not in control here. And that's all anxiety is. And so we've just we've got a culture or a world now that's trying to solve for the alarm sounding, instead of putting out the fire that the alarm is going to tell us is burning down our house. Right? I love that. So what is the difference? Or is there a difference from someone who has clinical anxiety versus just like anxious thoughts here and there? Yeah. See, now you're gonna soapbox, man, you're only a question. I think we live in a culture where language has been so distilled down, and every thing has been pathologized. And that's a nerdy way of saying, we only have we have anxiety and depression. That's the two ways we describe ourselves like so mom gets sick, I'm depressed mom leaves us. I'm depressed mom, who's mean to me, I'm depressed. Listen, that's the word we use. And it's, it's a diagnosis. That's like walking around saying like, sneezing, cancer. foot hurts cancer, like we just have one clinical word that we use for every feeling that says we're a little bit out of balance. We do the same thing with depression. We do this, we do the same thing with you know, we have we find ourselves running through a couple of patterns. Well, I've got OCD, or I've, you know, and so we over pathologize, everything. Gotcha. The difference, clinical anxiety is some is a is when your body takes off on you multiple times over a over a length of time, right. And depending on who you're talking to whatever the diagnostic manual, they're worshiping, that particular week, it's gonna it's gonna be different. But normally, it's three to six months, or it could be up to two years, have you been experiencing these symptoms? In these situations, that's gonna be a clinical anxiety. Somebody who's just anxious, which, if you live to the last two years, and you haven't had seasons of worry, or anxiousness, you should probably go see a doctor about that. That means your alarms are completely. Like you have no batteries in the alarm, you should put batteries in the alarms, right? You're not okay. Yeah. But that's different than a clinical diagnosis of clinical anxiety. And really, there's, we've all been in a hotel room where, you know, you've got a hot shower running, and it sets off the fire alarm, or, you know, you burn some popcorn, and it sets off the fire alarm in your house. There is a point when your alarm system becomes triggered by so much stuff, it becomes too sensitive, it becomes it becomes dulled down. So there is a season where we got to get our alarms tuned up. That's why I think medication can be helpful for a season. I think I think seeing a counselor can be helpful for seasons, walking with a coach or mentor, those things are important. That's about tuning the alarm up, that's not trying to shut the thing off in and unplug it and put it in a drawer. Okay, that's a great distinction. So, so whenever people are like, I need help. It's actually when you think of it as like, No, you're trying to work on rebalancing kind of the system as opposed to be like, done, no, put it away, put it away. Don't feel that kind of thing. Where if you ever feel anxious, the first question you should ask yourself is not how do I turn this off? The first question should be what is my body trying to tell me? Where am I disconnected? Where am I not safe? Or where am I out of control? Or am I not in control? And 99 times out of 100? We can point to that. It's where it's when, whenever I experienced clinical anxiety years ago, it's when I couldn't turn the news on my body would just take off on me. And they got it. The alarm system got too sensitive. And there's a series of desensitization things you do work with a counselor and you lean into those triggers. You don't run from that makes so much sense. So if you are well let's let's say you're someone who maybe has anxiety like you've been diagnosed with it, but you're kind of embarrassed to tell people about it. What are signs that say that a friend could recognize on their own and another friend if that person doesn't kind of want to talk about it feels like they're a burden, etc. I guess I just have to paint a picture of my friendships and just my personality, I tend to be pretty direct with things. If I have a friend who's struggling, I just asked my friend, if they're struggling, I think one of the jeez, I feel like I'm bashing society these days. It's not like like, a 90s, grunge metal song where just like the knee, yeah. We are all in such a hurry to give each other advice all the time. And to try to solve each other's problems all the time. And that's not my job, even with my best closest friends, even with my wife, my job isn't to solve all of her problems, my job is to show up and be present. If they invite me in, then that's where I can be of service to somebody. The worst thing you can do for somebody who's got anxiety is to point out, hey, you've got anxiety, and here's what you need to do. That just makes that is a signal to your body. Oh, I'm out of step with you too, huh? And the alarms are gonna ring louder. Not helpful. It's when somebody comes to you and says, Hey, man, are you do you not think the weather's crazy? Or the markets are crazy? Or do you think this all coming down? That's when somebody's inviting you in to say, well, here's what I think, got. And I have a few close friends of mine that I mean, one's a banker, one works with an H vac company, one of my buddies is, I've known him since I was born. And he works at. He's the assistant manager like NAPA Auto Parts is I mean, and folks who are college presidents, all those folks, at some point, I invited them in, and they gave me their little pearls of wisdom. But it came at an invitation, not somebody trying to insert themselves in somebody else's life. But I'll challenge any friend. If you don't know how to address a situation with somebody you consider a close friend, someone who's given permission to you to speak into their life lead with that. I feel like you're not okay. And I don't even know the right question to ask you right now. But I feel like you're not okay. If you don't talk about it. That's awesome. I want you to I love you, and something feels off with you. And I'm here if you want to talk. And that's it. And then I'm going about my daily business, because my job isn't to fix all my friends. Okay, so what if you know, you have this conversation? They're like, actually, yeah, I'm anxious is like, I'll get out all the time. I don't know what to do about it. What can a friend do at that point? I think a friend can ask great questions and provide a glimpse into reality. A good example for me is I gotten I had a season of life where it was in, oh, 809 when the market collapsed, and then I was buying house and I was working in higher ed, which was a failing industry. And it was just one compounding economic thing after another after another after another. And for whatever reason, my body identified, economics and I grew up, we grew up with not a lot as a as a kid. And so I've always had stress around money. I've always I was born into a a chaotic system, a chaotic relationship with money. And with economics and with finance. And the reality is, the market is so big. Now if it goes away, we all die. And we die. And we keep moving about it. I mean, it just all stops. Look at the supply chain issues we have now. I don't even they're in a boat, like right over there. Can we just go get them? Why are we swimming to them? Right? Why have we not? Why are we literally not swimming to get the stuff? We're not? We're just sitting here. There's nothing, you know, you don't say so I felt powerless. And for some reason, my brain and my body connected. The my inability to control my feelings of not being safe with the stock ticker. So I worked at university, I'd walk by the business building and I'd see the stock ticker going by and boom, my stomach would drop, my heart would start racing. And I even got to where I was start laughing. I'd be like, there's nothing happening right now. And if it was a green arrow pointing up, I think we're all gonna live and if it was in red arrow, my body responded as though there was somebody chasing you the hatchet. And I can say there's no Buddy, what are we doing? But it just got so finally, it just got so out of whack, right? Yeah. And I got a buddy who's a like a phenomenal banker, he makes more than a year that I'll make in my lifetime. And he's one of my oldest friends and a former roommate. And so we sat down, I just said, Hey, I need you to walk through this with me. And he gracefully, very ungracefully said, You're nuts. This isn't real. And or this is real. And it his famous quote to me was, John, I don't have a meteorite planet. If the US dollar contracts and goes away. We're going to be eating our neighbor's pets for food. We'll figure that out. When it happens. I don't have that plan. And I remember but he gave me a picture of reality and he has a voice that I trusted, right. And I had to go work with a counselor so I could learn some tips and tricks. So I wouldn't my body wouldn't take off on me. Every time I saw x, or every time I saw white, right, so it was both and but I think it's speaking truth in a gentle way not to win or convince somebody. But just to point out reality. Here's where we are. And what are some of those tips and tricks you learned to help manage the anxiety? You were feeling? Oh, can I give you the big one? Yes. This one always gets the internet's all riled up at me. The first key to healing from anxiety is choosing to not be anxious anymore. I have to decide I don't want to be anxious anymore. And ruminating thoughts or anxious thoughts feel like they are protective thoughts? Like they're helping us out? Like we're coming up with a plan for if, or we're pre having conversations in our head. I mean, how many times if we had covered Have you had conversation with somebody in your head over and over, that you will never have in real life? Are we just counting last hour? Yes, exactly. Like when I see him, I'm gonna tell him this or my boss, I'm gonna let them know. Or, like, you know, you're you work on film sets, like, I'm going to tell that, that, that DP that he, we're not gonna tell anybody anything. We're not gonna be any of these conversations ever. We never will have them. And we, but we feel like it's it's good thinking. Like, it's helpful thinking, like, it's important thinking, here's the catastrophe. Our body doesn't know the difference. And so when we start engaging in this conversation with ourselves, or with the end of time, or with our boss that we're going to tell off finally, or when I'm telling it, like, I'm gonna tell my wife the next time you my body responses. Oh, that happened. Wow. And so the way I would characterize that as if you had a clog in your sink once a year, and you put Drano down, it gets really bad for your pipes. But it'll clean that it'll clean that thing out. If you just wake up every day and dump Drano down your sink every day, in short order, it will eat through the pipes. That's what adrenaline and cortisol is designed for. It's designed for, oh, gosh, there's a bear. I'm gonna fight the bear, I'm gonna sprint away from the bears. But if every day I get up, and I live in a cycle, that is just stress upon stress upon stress. At some point, those chemicals that were designed to keep me alive in an acute situation, kill me. They take everything from. So I've got to decide, I don't want to be anxious all the time. This isn't helping me. This isn't. I'm using my alarm for everything, not just for the moments that and we don't want to be anxious, free, by the way anxiety free. That's dumb, you need an alarm system to let you know. So the first thing is I'm going to decide I'm going to live non anxiously. And then I'm going to be very curious about what are the things in my life that are setting off my body's alarms? Are they real? Are they not real? So I often will be one of the most common things I recommend for myself and for the people is they're going to write down the stories that they keep telling themselves about the future about the past about the president write these things down and demand evidence from them. Is this true? Or is this not true? Some of them right off the bat. Here's an example. Like my I may have told you this private conversation, my daughter, I was doing something I was walking out of the house. And it was like five or six in the morning, I was going out in the yard to do one of my whoop workouts in the morning, and a kiss my daughter on the top of her head. She's five. And she shook her head. I said good morning, baby. I love you. And I was walking out the door and she started shaking her head and she's like, all you ever want to do is kiss me and tell me that I'm greedy and brilliant and beautiful. I'm sick of it. I'm over you. And I can't live like this anymore. That's what my five year old said. I was like, Whoa, that's a lot. Right. And so, but here's the thing. I walked outside with half smile on my face and half feeling like crap. Yeah, because there's a story that's on a loop. That is me. You're kind of a crappy Dad. You're on the road a lot. You're always working on books. You're always right. You're always like, You're not very present. You're really good at this whole dad thing. And so whenever I feel like I'm not being a good dad, my body starts its protective routine, right? It dumps all the adrenaline cortisol because that's a threat I got. I want my kids to be in relationship with me. And I want to be with my kids. Yeah. And so I had to write down I keep a little journal with me like a geek and I keep a journal and just it's a story journal. And it just said, Are you the worst debt? answer's no. Right? So that I demanded evidence from that story. What is true, I've been really busy. And she's five. She's five. We don't let her buy cigarettes or beer because she's five. She can't drive. She can't do anything. Because she's five. So why in the world am I giving her a vote in my life? You don't I mean, so that's just it's just peeling those stories back. And then I can say is there a couple of things I need to address sure my behavior, absolutely, I can change my actions here. And I can change my thoughts here. That's number three is really being intentional about changing those thoughts. And we often, I didn't even know that was possible until seven or eight years ago that I had control over my thoughts. And it's like a muscle and over time, you just start thinking, a positive way this could turn out instead of the negative way this could turn out and changes everything. Wow. I'm thinking of, you know, the person who has been so deep in this self loathing, honestly, for such a long time, that if they started writing the stories down, they would actually have trouble discerning whether it is true or false. So what would you say to that person who's like, yeah, I wrote it down. Obviously, obviously, this is true, I suck. Everything about my life sucks. I'm dying, it's over. So I don't believe that any of us. I don't believe there's any sort of physical wellness or psychological wellness, relational wellness. I don't think any of us Oh, I guess relational wellness is a little bit on the nose there, you have to have other people in your life. Yeah, period, that is a cornerstone to physiological health. That's how your body co regulates itself. That's your body's will, your heartbeats will sync up, your breathing patterns will sync up. We're designed to be in tribes, and you can't be well without other people. And so it's really important to have somebody or a couple of people that you have committed to walking alongside them, and then with you, that you can bounce your stories off of. Sometimes that's our spouse, sometimes it's not, sometimes it's a professional. If you think your abuse is your fault, that's a conversation for you in a professional. If you think your dad left Kazaa, you may be a conversation with a professional. Hey, I don't feel like I'm being a good dad, here, man is a conversation I'm gonna have with a couple of close friends of mine that are guys that are also dads, and I'm saying, man, it's a weird season you're in? Or yeah, you kind of screwed that one up, you need to lean back into that, right? So it's, it's, it's you got to have other people in your life, because there is seasons when I don't, I'm not interpreting these stories. Well. Wow, that's so helpful. Thank you. Okay, so I want to move towards depression in that conversation. And I was like, let's buckle up. So I'm sure a lot of these questions are going to be naive. And I'd rather they be right, no, no, there is no naive question. No, okay. I'm serious. There's not. Okay. So I think from what I have observed, and this might be just my own lens, but I think people are afraid of depression, because it seems to be that people have associated it with suicide ideation. Like it's, they always come together like, Oh, they're depressed they might be, they might hate their life, and it might do something so can you can you speak to that weird kind of correlation that we've created? Is that true? Could you unpack that real quick? I'm sure there's a lot there. So depression. I love the way William Glasser, he's a famous psychiatrist, he died several years ago. I love the way he framed depression. He wouldn't allow his clients to say they're depressed. He allowed his clients to say, I'm depressing. My body is choosing to go into neutral here, my body is choosing because I am faced with a set of circumstances that my body doesn't feel like it can handle. It is choosing to slow down, it is choosing to go into neutral it is the fight or flight or freeze it is My body is is taking my feelings and emotions and settling them down. This isn't a safe place here. It's so depression often is a lie about the past, that whatever happened was your fault. And it's always going to be this way. It's always going to feel this way. And that's where you push on depression, because it's not true. I think all of us I think depression plays a role just like anxiety does. It's an alarm system, right? That's letting us know, it's a little bit more functional than then just an alarm. But I'm speaking in broad generalities here. When it comes to suicide. Yes, there's a there's a correlation there, but they're certainly not causal. The worst thing with suicide is this perceived burdensomeness I'm alone, and other people are worse off with me in their presence. And we've seen a rash of suicides over the last few years where people looked on the outside like they were doing great. Yeah. And so the idea of depression has a lot of different phases to it. depression often I'm going to unnecessarily gender this, but depression often looks it for women like a shut down. And for men, it can look the opposite. It can be this grandiose, putting your chest out and screaming real loud and pounded on your chest and trying to get your way. That's depression too. And so it looks really different. The worst thing you can do with depression is say nothing is to have no one with you can walk through that with suicide is about are you a burden to me. And so I always will lean into both of those conversations like hey, you've seen really low, you doing okay? And inviting, like asking for an invitation. And if I don't get it, I don't get it, but comes to suicide. Somebody says I'm having dark thoughts. I'm thinking about hurting myself. I don't wait for an invitation on that. I go right in the middle of that. Which looks like what? Which looks like I'm gonna call in the cavalry every time I'll call 911. I'll my closest friends in the world. No, I will call everybody. I will sit down and do a Mental Health First Aid diagnostic myself or I will do a QPR. I mean, I'll find out where you're at. And then we're going to get you to help you. I've just done too many funerals and been to too many funerals. And given too many death notifications, I'm not going to have a conversation left unsaid when it comes to that. That framing is so helpful, because it it basically answered the question like depression is not. I'm just really sad. No, and yeah, and I think that's the that's the misunderstanding, there seems to be this thing where like you had pointed out that they feel like they're a burden. So how can you come alongside as a friend to someone who does have depression and feels like they're always a burden, because in my own life, whenever I've had friends, with depression, there have been conversations that have gotten sideways by me trying to kind of lean in and be like, I don't want to talk to it. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to bother you. And I'm like, I'm literally asking for it. So how can we help with that, I think is knowing our limitations on and what our skill set is, and where our ability to help love somebody meets their desire to not be loved in this moment, or in that way. And that can feel really empowering, it can feel small, I can feel scary. I've had friends in my life. I've especially had students and people have walked alongside and said, You don't have to tell me. But you're going to tell somebody, and you gotta 24 hours still somebody and let me know that you told somebody or I'm calling everybody I can I'm gonna call your parents, I'm gonna call your boss, I'm gonna call 911. I'm calling everybody. And you can hate me. But you know what, you'll be alive to hate me. So that's great. And that's my approach to it. i And I often find myself trying to dig on things that don't need to be dug into right before it might not be the just just today, just today. My wife and I had a disagreement about something. And I could see that I had said something. And that it had I had her feelings. And I was late, I needed to get out the door so I can get to my Showtime. I can't miss the Showtime at that clock starts going in, it's going. And I said hey, I realized I just said something could see it on you. What did I like walk me through what I just said? And she said, I think it's best. Let's let me just sit on this. And then we'll talk about this afternoon. I said no, what did I say that? She told me like not now's a good time. And then she said, Well, you just said this to you know what I mean? Yeah. So what I should have done is trust her intuition and her smarts and her ability to know if now's a good time or not a good time. And come back this afternoon. And instead I kept pushing and pushing because I want it became about me not about her. And my desire to make sure she was okay was much more about me than her. And we get that way with our friends and depression sometimes, that we're the friends that anxiety sometimes, if somebody tells me they are a burden to me, I will look them in the eye and say that is a story you are telling yourself and that is not true. You're free to tell yourself that story on your own time. You will not say that story around me because I like having you around. You're part of my life. My life doesn't work without you. And you're a cornerstone of who I am. Period. And I'm just real emphatic about people's stories, the stories that are born into the stories they tell themself. The stories they were told by other people. Somehow that story they were told became a story that they're not telling themselves and that story is a scary one because we hear it in our own voice and we trust ourselves. Yeah, so how can I get in the middle that story, but at the end of the day, if they want to keep telling himself that story, I can't help that I will keep you alive, I'll call 911. And you know what I mean, at some point, they take away your civil rights and don't let you hurt yourself if they can, hopefully, by getting involved and look at some of the AI and saying that you're a person of value to me, that helps. Yeah, no, I, I look, because I hear you say that on the show that my life doesn't work without you. You say that often to people and how they have that conversation. And I have never heard a phrase. So on the nose, like that to be like, I do. Like I would always be gripped if somebody said that to me. So I love that because it brings it full circle, right that in there. I think we, our friend, Ken Coleman talks about I think, I think we have found ourselves in a little sliver of history, we're all of our needs are being met in a way that we don't have a purpose anymore. Like, I don't need you, I've got 1000 friends on my phone, I don't need like, I don't need to grow my food. Because there's 17 grocery stores, I mean, we just have this weird thing in our bodies craves purpose. And there's something grounding about hearing somebody say, My Life does not work without you. And again, we all we've either experienced it or we know people depression is not sadness. Depression is a black hole, it's when your body says I am out. And it is scary, and it is heavy. And it can be a short road out or it can be a long road out. Or it can just be a disposition that you work on leaning into for a long period of time. And I think actually depression anxiety are on the same trendline I think we've turned them into these two different diagnostics just so we can split them up and give each other a different medicine. They're on the same trendline. Right. And they work very closely together to let you know that you're not okay. They all start with with connection. Yeah, clinical depression, versus depressive episode, I think, is what it's called. Because, because I think what in my experience, I've had depressive episodes, which have been onset by circumstance. And then I get nervous. I'm like, Oh, my God, do I have depression? Can you explain what's going on there? Because because I think the thing for myself is when I go numb, that's what I hate. Because anybody who knows me know, I am not dumb. I feel everything all the time. I'm a Foreign Enneagram big feelings here. So yeah, could you explain the difference between an episode versus this is a clinical thing. I think it sounds like in the way you're speaking of it, there's the seasons of like, I'm really sad. Like I'm or I'm grieving. I'm in a season of loss, or I woke up this morning and had no feelings. I just didn't feel anything. And I that's where I think routine and I wish there was another word that was less like Jocko. But that's where discipline is so important. There's so many days I don't feel like exercising. But I know that exercise is a cornerstone to working through depression, moving your body were designed to move our bodies. And it will begin if we stopped moving it, our body attribute will just go into neutral. We're not using this thing. I'm gonna shut it down. And so there are days I don't so I've got a routine that says the routine is more important than my feelings. And I've committed to that. I don't seasons when I don't want to talk to anybody. And I have to so I've got a couple of rules for myself if I'm if all the but my buddies are gonna go to watch the fights and my first thought is, dude, I'm just gonna go to bed. I have to go That's a rule. I have to go and I've never regretted not one time have I said I shouldn't have done this. It's always worth and so I set up some pre stuff for me for these episodes. Depression isn't like when you do what you just said it is oh gosh, did I catch COVID depression doesn't work like that. Yeah, it doesn't like oh, did I get I got it. Ah, and now I'm depressed. This is not how it works. Yeah. Again, think of depression on a trendline. The longer you hide the heavier things get and I don't say hide in a weak way but the longer our bodies say our environment is too much. I'm going to we need to shut it down. The heavier everything begins to feel and the darker everything begins to feel. So if you see somebody who has been hospitalized for major depressive disorder, which is scary, right, that's heavy. One of the one of the things they will do is they will give you get you to sleep and they will give you food and then they will do little things like your job today is to get out of bed and put lipstick on and then go back to bed. You get back in bed today. We want you to get up and go shower and then You can get back in bed, we're talking little wins, little wins, little wins, little wins. And what I found in my life and not everybody, but on a bell curve, most of the people in the middle, it's you can look back and say, Oh, I quit doing this. I quit doing this. And I quit doing this. I stopped doing the things that I know keep me well over time. And the alarms got louder and louder. Instead of leaning into the alarms. I just went further and further from you're an extrovert, I assume. I'm actually an introvert. Okay, because whenever you're talking about going to the fights, versus wanting to sleep, because you're, you just want to tap out if a friend is noticing this where you're like, teetering on the land, you're like, I kind of don't want to go out. Should that be when the friend is like, hey, I want you there. Is that something that could help in that situation? I have. So dude, yes, yeah, I do that all the time. And I'll peer pressure my friends. So dude, you're coming, I'm paying for it, you're coming. You're not going to not come, there will be enough messages, they get the message that I wanted you there that we wanted you there. Yeah. And some people just hired me and they need to go to bed. Some people like your main they've had a credit, crazy. I know you don't have crazy month, whatever. So they know they're gonna get a ribbing from me. And I'm not gonna be an idiot about it. I've got, you know, I've got some buddies that still try to peer pressure, like we're in middle school. And do it too. That's dumb. Like, you're gonna know, but also life happens, man, and maybe your wife wants you to stay at home or your husband wants you around, or your boyfriend just called and said, Hey, we're gonna hang out. And of course, I know your boyfriend, a bunch of idiot guys watching the fights, whatever the thing is, yeah. Or you've got a two year old and you'd rather just sit in your two year old and hanging out with a bunch of idiot guys yelling and screaming at two grown people punching themselves in the face for money, like so I get all of that. But you're gonna know I wanted you with us. That's and again, that goes back to not letting things be unspoken. Yeah. You know, the stigma? At what point? Or why should someone want to pursue therapy in their lives? Is there a tell? It's like, oh, you need therapy? Does everyone need therapy? Just pull out that soapbox and go to town. I just give you the full floor here. So I, I want to, I guess start that? Let me answer that this way. I don't think people are broken. And I don't like the mechanistic metaphors that we use to describe each other. I don't like the technology ones we use either. There's no such thing as letting off steam. There's no such thing as fixing your marriage. There's no such thing as downloading new information into a human brain. Those are all really blunt, obtuse metaphors. I get why we use them. They help in a conversation but you don't go to therapy to fix yourself. Oh, instead of talking about fixing, I like the idea of learning new skills of practicing new skills of healing and teaching your body that yes, that happened in the past. But we're safe now. And that's what therapy is for. And so under that new paradigm of therapy, anyone could go. I had a great counseling professor Dr. Marley, she's just a savant man just wants people here in the presence of you realize she's about 11 times smarter than me maybe 12 It's just like exponentially but she said one of the challenges with with mental health care's we often wait till we are in crisis before we go talk to somebody. She said, that's like waiting till you have the flu to go sign up at the gym for your new workout program. is the worst possible time to try to get well because you're sick. The best time to go is when you and somebody you're dating, when y'all are you and your partner just crushing it to go. Let's go learn some new skills. Let's go practice some things with a professional with a neutral third party who can poke and prod on us because we're as good as we are right now. Let's get better. That's when you're like manager really good. But I've suddenly looked up and I've added 15 pounds, and I haven't called My buddies and something just a little off. I'm gonna call somebody and chit chat. And maybe they can point something out in my rearview mirror that I can't see. So I I hate that there's this big clinical diagnosis, I mean, differentiation between some of these terms. But like Kobe Bryant, when greatest basketball players of all time had a nutritionist had a workout, like a personal trainer, had a shooting coach had a defense coach had a head coach. I mean, had a whole group had a counselor had a whole group of professionals looking at blind spots in his life, saying hey, you're not seeing this, but let's check this out. or what have you thought about that? I think we all can can use some sort of coach or some sort of therapist or some sort of neutral third party helping us achieve the things that we want to achieve or heal in the way that we want to heal. Yeah, I had said, because I want two to four years of like, very consistent therapy and counseling and and how I described it to people who were afraid of pursuing that was, if you go in with the approach of like, I need fixed, or I need healed, then it puts such a pressure on the other person, and not really any onus on yourself. And I said, when I switch the mentality to I just want to understand myself better. That's when it took off. Because I was like, now I am working with this person to try and understand how I'm wired, why I'm doing this. What can I do? Boom, boom, boom. So do you agree with that statement? And what would you say to someone that's just like, I don't want to tell a stranger and everything about my life. A yes to the first part of your your you are responsible for your own mental health journey. Nobody else can fix you. That's not their job. Their job is to hold up a mirror and walk alongside you and help you practice things. The greatest gift the counselor can give you is practicing conversations, practicing, reflection, practicing looking for things that you missed. I'll never forget, I had a non it was not a therapist. It was just a buddy was when I was dating my wife, and we were back in college. And she said some things that you're a jerk. And you do this, this. And I told one of my buddy, his name's Trevor. He's still one of my closest friends. And I told Trevor to she said this, this and this, and he got quiet. And he was like, Oh, are you serious? And I'll go, yeah. And he goes, absolutely. She's right. You're the worst. And it broke my heart. Because I didn't want to be a jerk or anything. I didn't realize that this behavior was up behavior. Like, oh, gosh, that I'm that guy. I'm being that guy. And so I had a buddy who just held up a mirror and said, Hey, are you serious? Of course, that's you. And since that time, it's been out? I never want someone to characterize me that way. Yeah. And so sometimes it's a matter of having working out a lot. Well, let's keep a journal. Oh, gosh, I work out once a month. A lot is not what I thought it was. I'm sleeping great. And then you start tracking your sleep. And I know somebody, I'm going to pay somebody 150 bucks or 100 bucks that I don't have that's expensive to walk alongside and look at my data points. How'd you sleep this week? Actually only slept two weeks? And then here's the magic question. Why are you choosing to only sleep to up two days out of the week? Why are you only choosing to take care of yourself in these ways. And earlier today, I was took a call on my radio show and somebody said, I've seen a therapist, and I need to know if this actually works. And we walked through therapy and this and I asked her why are you now choosing to continue? There's no more mining you need to do you know about your childhood traumas, you know about some of your triggers, you know about your bipolar disorder? Why are you now choosing to live in a way that where you're not at maximum healthiness? And she was like, oh, and right. So that's, that's the therapist gonna walk alongside you. And you had a second part to that question. What was it totally like talking about? Like talking to strangers? Yes. Get over yourself. You know of yourself. I don't want to tell it will tell somebody. But I saw this the other day, I think it was I don't remember what was, the guy's a genius, and his name is not coming to me. But he said, If you complain about something to three or more people, you're not looking for a solution. You're looking for a somebody that just to wind to. Yeah, right. And so if people who say no show and tell them to complete stranger, either you have somebody in your life that you trust that you can talk to, or you're choosing to not be, well, that's really your options. I've got strep throat, but I don't want to take pills. Well, cool, then you are choosing to be sick. That's a strange choice to make in this modern era. But I five to you what I mean? Yeah, like, go go get him. And I just don't buy that. It's just a cop out. And it's an argument, go talk to somebody. There are trained professionals. That's like saying, I don't want somebody with their big hoses to put the fire out of my house. Like I want to use my little hurt why? They're trained to do it. Talk to somebody. Yeah. And let him being kind of a jerk. But let that fear. Be curious about the fear. Let that be a signal. Why is your body telling you that telling somebody what's going on in your heart and mind is a scary thing or an unsafe thing? Because it shouldn't be so lean into that fear. Be curious about the fear. Start there with a counselor I don't want to talk to you. I'm scared to talk to you. I feel weird talking to a perfect stranger. That's a great way to start a counseling session. Well, I blame the parents who are saying stranger danger going up. And now we have to pay to talk to his tribe to what is happening in our city. I do think and my colleagues across the country who have mental health, I do think we have reached a nother bonkers place in our society, we've outsourced everything. And what used to be handled with the wisdom of elders in our small communities, or small tribes, or we were all looking out for each other, or we were all invested in our people, whoever that happened to be being well, and I'm speaking of a utopia that never existed. I know that. But yeah, the idea that one of the chapters in my new book is about loneliness. And the last statistic I've read said, three out of four Americans, when faced with a 2am crisis, have zero people to call None. Zero. I have nobody to call that could come to my house at 2am. And watch my kid. Well, I took my wife to the ER zero. Think about how preposterous the idea of a hotline is the fact that a government had to put a group of strangers in a room to answer a phone from another stranger, because we don't have anybody to call. We don't know our neighbors. We don't have anyone in our churches anymore. We don't have anyone from work that we trust, everything's been HRT out. We just professionalize everything. So in many ways, the rise of quote unquote, mental health care. The we need more mental health professionals. But more than that, we need more neighbors. We need more people who just speak into our lives. Yeah. Gotta mean. Yeah. And we need less trauma everywhere. God Almighty. Anyway, it's everything. It's both in. Yeah, no, that's, that's so helpful. And this entire conversation has been I look at all my notes I took. It's clearly been a great class today. Thank you, sir. No, but I really appreciate this conversation. And I think it's going to, I think it's going to bless and also really help. A lot of friendships out there. So thank you for taking the time to have it with me. Here's the minus thing a friend can do for another friend. Yes. Show up. Be present. Be more let them tell their story without you telling yours. And asking good questions. I love it. That's it. That's it. That's it. If your identity and your friendship is I'm the advice giver, you're a lame friend. If your identity in your relationship is under question asker nobody ever finds out about within your lane friend, dude, just show up in relationship. If you feel like I can't tell this person, that thing. That's a signal. Ask yourself, why be curious about those signals. Amazing. Wow, I hope you found that to be an incredibly profound and enriching conversation, like it was for me. But before I say anything else, I do want to give the phone number for the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. It is 800-273-8255. Again, that's 800-273-8255. And I once heard a speaker say that they fully believe that every person should have that number in their phone. And I wanted to pass that information along to you. If you are struggling, please know that you are not alone. And you are so incredibly loved. And as Dr. John likes to say, you deserve to be well. So I'm also going to link Psychology Today in the show notes, which is where you can find a counselor or a therapist near you. If after listening to this episode, you've decided that you want to pursue it for your own emotional well being, I have so many takeaways. I'm not even going to number them. This time. I know you may have others as well. But I hope you took notes because here are some of mine. When Dr. John talked about how the number one tip he had for maintenance of his anxiety is when he said quote, choosing not to be anxious all the time. This isn't helping me and not in a sarcastic way to say, Oh, well, that's simple. Now I'll never struggle with that again, but rather making a conscious effort to recognize when the thoughts come in and then asking yourself, Is this real? So essentially confronting the anxiety alarm that goes off in our bodies and determining whether your body is trying to help you versus harm you? And just whatever those anxiety symptoms strike being able to discern what is my body actually trying to tell me right now. And I love the research that John had briefly talked about where you are actually able to chain your thought patterns. I thought that was amazing, so profound and extremely uplifting and encouraging as well. Then whenever we switched into the conversation about depression, how Dr. John had essentially defined it as rather quote, I am depressing. My body is choosing to go into neutral here that was such a helpful delineation for me and when he talked about knowing your limitations as a friend, and that whole concept of when our ability to love somebody meets their Your desire to be loved in that moment, or in the way that we're trying to. I also loved whenever Dr. John said, You need to have other people in your life we are designed to be in tribes, and you cannot be well without other people. And I loved love loved that moment when he talked about having a conversation with someone who believes that they're a burden, looking them dead in the eyes, and saying, My life doesn't work without you. What a powerful and truly honest statement, that could be to remind those, that that story they're telling themselves of being a burden is absolutely not true. And then whenever he discussed the stigma of not wanting to go to therapy, or counseling, and how he basically defined it, as you don't go to therapy to fix yourself, you go to learn new skills, heal and teach your body that yes, that happened in the past, but I'm safe now. And then this quote, really hit me when he said, waiting until you're in crisis is like waiting until you have the flu before signing up for your new workout program. That's the worst possible time because you simply aren't well, then. Now that's not to say you can't go at all. That's just to say, Hey, make it a priority to go ASAP, whether you are feeling amazing, or maybe not your best self as well. But if you can, quote unquote, catch it early, you're going to be ahead. And then this statistic broke my heart when he said that three fourths of American with a 2am crisis have zero people to call. And I personally want to absolutely obliterate this statistic. This seems unacceptable to me. And we, yes, you and me, we can actually be that change. So let's do it. Let's build relational wealth and dig in, have hard conversations, walk alongside people, and let them know how much they mean to us. At the top of the episode I shared how you can connect with John Maloney at Gentiloni on Instagram or Twitter or his website, John maloney.com. His YouTube and his podcast the dr. john delaney show is absolutely incredible. I was not exaggerating when I say I binge listened to every episode, and I'm gonna put all the links down below in the show notes as well. Also, quick plug, I just read his book, redefining anxiety, it's a real quick read. It's not even 100 pages. And man, it has really helped me personally and I know it could absolutely do the same for you. He also has another book that should be coming out in 2022, which you bet. I'm gonna plug because I just loved everything he shared with us today. So guys, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. And please know that I want this conversation to get into as many ears as possible, because I know just how many of us are committed to walking alongside people and reminding them that they're not alone because that's how we build relational wealth. So please share this episode on Instagram, Facebook, all the socials and please feel free to tag me at so Asher or the podcast accidentally intentional. And John delone on all of those as well, guys, I'm excited for us. I'm excited for who we can be heading into this new year, the friendships we can make and how much stronger we can become together. I love you guys. I'll see you next time on The accidentally intentional podcast. Was there someone that came to mind as you were listening to this episode? Because if so, please share it with them. We're so passionate about this message, and we want to give value to the people that would benefit from it. We drop a new episode every other Thursday, so be sure to subscribe to get the latest conversations. Oh, and one more thing. If you enjoy this episode and this podcast, I would be so honored. If you would leave a review. It helps us to better connect with the intended audience of this podcast by doing so. And I truly am so grateful for any amount of time that you choose to spend with me because trust me I know how many options are out there and I do not take it for granted. Seriously, I just wow I just really appreciate you and take I may not know your name yet, but let's change that connect with me on Instagram at XO Asher, or on Twitter at combos with xo. But hey, even if I don't know your name yet, what I do know for certain is that you're amazing. I love you. You have something that the world needs and you are always more than enough. So hey, we'll see you next time on The accidentally intentional podcast.